What isn’t obvious is what he’d think of things today, and what program he’d advocate.

In fact, King’s writings - taken as a whole, rather than the out-of-context quotes right-wingers prefer - make him sound pretty much like any current defender of Affirmative Action.

I have no disagreement with point 1.
I also have no disagreement with point 2.

My point is that King’s PUBLIC stance was different. As for any politician, people’s writings and their public persona are often different. In fact, people’s personal belief and their political stance are often different–politics force a degree of compromise that personal belief need not consider.

Publicly, King tended to push equality a lot, of which the noted speech above is one example. It should be obvious** that in a country where governments practice overt racism, it’s going to be easier to make smaller steps than bigger ones: i.e. it’s easier to persuade folks to accept “neutral” rather than “compensatory non-neutral” actions.

I agree that his writings are supportive of AA. What I can’t tell is whether or not you think that his public speeches–for example, IHAD–are supportive of AA or not. We may not be disagreeing at all.

**I can’t tell if you’re disputing this or not. If so, then it’s not as obvious as I think, and we should discuss it.

Nonetheless, in my post, I backed up what I was saying with both a historian talking about MLK, and with specific quotes from a cited work by MLK. Unless you do the same, there’s no reason for me to think that your opinion is well-informed.

Obviously, as that quote from the book shows, he has views which were quite similar to the views in support of AA. OTOH, as far as I know (and my knowledge of MLK is not extensive so I may well be wrong) it seems that he presented a different attitude in his speeches.

This is pretty normal. The attitudes that people take in one setting–written communications, small groups, organizations of like-minded individuals–are often deliberately different from those that they take in a different setting. Nothing wrong with that; it’s just politics.

King was a highly skilled politician and writer, and if he thought his speeches or presentations resulted in inaccurate understanding of his position I have no doubt he’d be easily able to change them. If he chose not to, that is also evidence of his decision.

My own personal guess is that, as with many causes today, King was focusing on the general major issues on multiple fronts, and didn’t have the time to work out every potential conflict between the multiple suggestions for actions. Again, this is perfectly normal for a political movement, and isn’t an implication that King was doing anything wrong.

I tend to believe that King’s major goal was the cessation of overt racism, and that he would have prioritized that above AA, but that he would also have happily asked for and accepted AA-type programs if he thought he could get those as well.

There’s a huge difference from thinking AA is deserved and ideal (a position which I believe King would have supported) and thinking it’s politically wise and feasible. As I said, he was a good politician, and he may well have believed that asking for AA would cause too much difficulty in the larger and more important battle. And who knows, he may have been right: AA continues to be the slot in the gates through which most people attack and become opposed to anti-racist policies.

(Going to fix, going to fix…)

MLK was named (partially) after one of these men. I believe you have guessed the wrong one.

I think a major problem with how King, jr. is co-opted by White people of any political stripe is because most of us only know a few lines from one speech, when he wrote and said so much. So it’s hard to put his words chosen from one particular speech, in any form of context. Ask any white person about King, jr. and 9.9 out of 10 times they’ll quote the same two or three lines from “I have a Dream.”?

I think that’s a general problem with any significant historical figure — they’re all liable to be oversimplified, quoted out of context, and so forth.

In King’s case, there’s a specific pattern to the way he’s misquoted and taken out of context: he’s portrayed as a lone martyr for moderation, who never said anything that anyone could actually disagree with. That takes him out of the context of being a leader within a movement, one who’s views shifted over time, and who found himself increasingly at odds with established white liberals.

You’re joking, right? No, I know you’re not b/c I deal with people like you at least once a day. They usually add that the only *real* racism is against White people.>>

We only have to provide one for you to concede the idiocy of this assertion? Here:

http://villagevoice.com/news/index.php?issue=0522&page=hunter&id=64464

If the link’s dead, check out bitchphd’s blog or Prometheus 6 or Pinko Feminist Hellcat for their summaries.

And major corporations who’s survive today b/c people buy their products and stock even though they were engaged in the slave trade and profitted from it.

The slave owners weren’t the sole benficiaries of slave labor though they did benefit greatly, particularly the larger plantations and businesses. However, many businesses in the North for example sold products made from slave labor, for example. People in the North purchased and used those products. Railroad companies especially in the South used slave labor to build them. I guess slavery is something that just happened down THERE, although the northern economy benefitted greatly from slave labor, as well.

That’s a simplistic way of looking at it, b/c this country was built on the backs of slave labor. A lot of what it has today comes from slave labor. This country still uses slave labor today.
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Amendment 13: Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
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The loophole in the amendment “banning” slavery allowed freed slaves to remain slaves for many years after emancipation and the end of the civil war. Immigrants and prison inmates are groups vulnerable to slavery in more modern times.
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Back to MLK, jr….I think a major problem with how King, jr. is co-opted by White people of any political stripe is because most of us only know a few lines from one speech, when he wrote and said so much. So it’s hard to put his words chosen from one particular speech, in any form of context. Ask any white person about King, jr. and 9.9 out of 10 times they’ll quote the same two or three lines from “I have a Dream.”
And even when people know, they’ll pick the lines out of speeches which suit their agendas, which is to promote white priviliage as a meritocracy with a tag attached that says, we’re not looking at skin color, just character, lol.

You’re joking, right? No, I know you’re not b/c I deal with people like you at least once a day. They usually add that the only *real* racism is against White people.

Living or Dead? Because I know some who have died because of what you would probably call faux racism? Or it’s-all-in-their-heads racism?

I can name the 17 city workers who were subjected to racist slurs, racist vandelism, human feces smeared on their work vehicles, Black dolls hung in effagy in the workplace, and physical assaults. That was just on the harassment end, they faced the glass ceilings, glass walls and retaliatory actions taken any time they tried to complain about racism in the workplace. They sued. The city’s spent nearly three-quarters of a million dollars to stop them. They’re scheduled for settlement talks for the first time in nine years of court battles.

I can name the two dozen Black students who were arrested and peppersprayed by cops after a white student called one of them an “n—–” and that one threw a punch. The white kids who started the fight and threw punches were allowed to go to class. Four Black students were sent to the hospital with asthma attacks. All of them had to do work programs to be admitted back to school, and their parents had to sign permission slips allowing them to be peppersprayed. Two female students were cavity searched at juvenile hall. One student spent six months in juvy.

I saw the fight and the events leading up to it myself and how the police selectively peppersprayed Black students b/c some student videotaped the whole fight between the “n——s and the jocks” as he called them.

Then there’s apartments who won’t rent to Black people. Banking institutions who won’t give loans to Black customers. Police who racially profile and target Black and Latino people from the time they’re kids.

That’s for starters in one region. If I wrote everything, Amp would be out of band width.

What’s more, the notion that the only people to have suffered from slavery are the slaves themselves is profound insult against us all. That no proper reparations were made at the time of emancipation provided for a culture of poverty and oppression aided and abeted by white men who not only clung to racists views but genuinely profited from the arrangement. The days of sharecropping may be dead, but their economic impact lingers on.

As a white man, I am duty bound to admit that the color of my skin has provided me with opportunities that may not have been available to me had I been a white man. I grew up in a poor, African-American neighborhood, so I know its not because of where I’m from. My family was comfortably lower-middle class, and that’s certainly a leg up, but why is that? My dad was a hard worker who grew up in poverty. I have to believe he had chances to make a better life for himself because he had the right color of skin. I have to believe the same happened with me. Can I point to any individual who specifically helped me because I’m white? No. I doubt much or any of it is conscious, but its there nonetheless. There are pervasive cultural influences in this society which persist. The best I can do is to remain aware of the advantages I’ve received and hope I can do something to ensure those advantages can be enjoyed by all men and women of all racial backgrounds. Do I know how to do it? No. But for the time being, Affirmative Action seems like a good way to level the playing field, if only just a little. Many, much like yourself, prefer to deny racisim than to deal with plain truth in front of their faces. We need to deal with the wrongs of today. Forget slavery. Affirmative Action is dealing with today’s racisim. A racism far more transparent but still very real an very harmful.

And this is from another decendant of Irish and Native American slaves. Just because my ancestors were also wronged is no reason to ignore the wrongs being committed against my human brothers and sisters in this day and age.

Would a more fair system would be to calculate what slaves would have earned if they had been paid, and what they would have left to their children when they died, and take that from descendants of slave owners, who inheritated the profits of those slave owners. I’m sure we could find some families who are still benefiting from wealth accumulated from slave labour.