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	<title>Comments on: Wednesday is cartoon day! (The Wall)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/</link>
	<description>Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:51:12 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2</generator>
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		<title>By: Janis</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1324</link>
		<dc:creator>Janis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1324</guid>
		<description>Why am I geting "Red Dwarf" flashbacks?  *pfft!*  This is mine, and *pfft!* this is mine, and *pfft!* this is mine ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why am I geting &#8220;Red Dwarf&#8221; flashbacks?  *pfft!*  This is mine, and *pfft!* this is mine, and *pfft!* this is mine &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: pericat</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1325</link>
		<dc:creator>pericat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1325</guid>
		<description>ouch! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ouch! :)</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1326</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1326</guid>
		<description>Sounds about right.

Shades of the Enclosures Act.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds about right.</p>
<p>Shades of the Enclosures Act.</p>
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		<title>By: RA</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1327</link>
		<dc:creator>RA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1327</guid>
		<description>One thing I really like about your cartoons, Barry: you never cariacature people who are doing the wrong thing as ugly. This isn't the first time I've noticed that. Even your "ugly American" character isn't drawn to be physically repulsive. 

In this case I really appreciate it, because of how many cartoons that show Israel doing something self-destructive (like this) show a hideous version of Arik Sharon or something else that looks anti-Semitic. (Mark Fiore even gave the Israeli soldiers in one cartoon silly noses--though admittedly he also stereotyped the Palestinians--though that really didn't make me feel better at all...)I think it's important to be able to criticize what Israel is doing without drawing on these heinous stereotypes. 

You also draw people with realer-looking bodies and hair, and your fat people are cute and attractive-looking. Makes it fun to read your cartoons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing I really like about your cartoons, Barry: you never cariacature people who are doing the wrong thing as ugly. This isn&#8217;t the first time I&#8217;ve noticed that. Even your &#8220;ugly American&#8221; character isn&#8217;t drawn to be physically repulsive. </p>
<p>In this case I really appreciate it, because of how many cartoons that show Israel doing something self-destructive (like this) show a hideous version of Arik Sharon or something else that looks anti-Semitic. (Mark Fiore even gave the Israeli soldiers in one cartoon silly noses&#8211;though admittedly he also stereotyped the Palestinians&#8211;though that really didn&#8217;t make me feel better at all&#8230;)I think it&#8217;s important to be able to criticize what Israel is doing without drawing on these heinous stereotypes. </p>
<p>You also draw people with realer-looking bodies and hair, and your fat people are cute and attractive-looking. Makes it fun to read your cartoons.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1328</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1328</guid>
		<description>I agree with R.A. I'm glad you spared us the vile Jew-hating imagery of many anti-Israel political cartoons, such as &lt;a href="http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/qatar_cartoons.asp"&gt;these Qatari ones&lt;/a&gt;. The fact you put a normal-looking Israeli guy (gasp!) instead of some subhuman monster makes me that much more receptive to your ideas. (And yes, I'm equally dismissive of American newspapers' portrayal of the Arab world as a bunch of Ayatollah Khomeini doppelgangers.)

As a side note, do "facts on the ground" really matter that much? If I'm not mistaken, Israel had an extensive system of settlements on the Sinai peninsula, but was able to dismantle them when it returned that land to Egypt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with R.A. I&#8217;m glad you spared us the vile Jew-hating imagery of many anti-Israel political cartoons, such as <a href="http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/qatar_cartoons.asp">these Qatari ones</a>. The fact you put a normal-looking Israeli guy (gasp!) instead of some subhuman monster makes me that much more receptive to your ideas. (And yes, I&#8217;m equally dismissive of American newspapers&#8217; portrayal of the Arab world as a bunch of Ayatollah Khomeini doppelgangers.)</p>
<p>As a side note, do &#8220;facts on the ground&#8221; really matter that much? If I&#8217;m not mistaken, Israel had an extensive system of settlements on the Sinai peninsula, but was able to dismantle them when it returned that land to Egypt.</p>
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		<title>By: Ampersand</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1329</link>
		<dc:creator>Ampersand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1329</guid>
		<description>"Facts on the ground" aren't an all-important factor; they don't make an agreement impossible. But they are a factor. Building the wall in a land-grabbing fashion, rather than along the green line, doesn't make a real peace agreement impossible; but it does set up yet another hurdle between where we are now and where we want to end up, an additional hurdle that in my opinion isn't necessary.

RA and anonymous, thanks for your compliments regarding my drawing. I'm &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; not into the entire "ugly people are evil" subtext that you do see in a lot of political cartoons, and I'm glad you agree.

On the other hand, for single-image cartoonists - who have less space than I do to let the script indicate to the reader who is being talked about - I can see the advantage of a visual icon that instantly says "Israel." But those cartoons anonymous points to cross WAY over the line into blatant anti-Semitism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Facts on the ground&#8221; aren&#8217;t an all-important factor; they don&#8217;t make an agreement impossible. But they are a factor. Building the wall in a land-grabbing fashion, rather than along the green line, doesn&#8217;t make a real peace agreement impossible; but it does set up yet another hurdle between where we are now and where we want to end up, an additional hurdle that in my opinion isn&#8217;t necessary.</p>
<p>RA and anonymous, thanks for your compliments regarding my drawing. I&#8217;m <i>really</i> not into the entire &#8220;ugly people are evil&#8221; subtext that you do see in a lot of political cartoons, and I&#8217;m glad you agree.</p>
<p>On the other hand, for single-image cartoonists - who have less space than I do to let the script indicate to the reader who is being talked about - I can see the advantage of a visual icon that instantly says &#8220;Israel.&#8221; But those cartoons anonymous points to cross WAY over the line into blatant anti-Semitism.</p>
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		<title>By: Ampersand</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1330</link>
		<dc:creator>Ampersand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1330</guid>
		<description>Hee hee, Janis - I didn't even &lt;i&gt;think&lt;/i&gt; of Red Dwarf until I read your comment, and I love that show!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hee hee, Janis - I didn&#8217;t even <i>think</i> of Red Dwarf until I read your comment, and I love that show!</p>
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		<title>By: PG</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1331</link>
		<dc:creator>PG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1331</guid>
		<description>I agree with Ampersand; I don't understand why a Wall should be built in a land-grabby way if it can be built in a clearly legal way. God knows, Israel exists in extreme conditions, but sometimes the current government seems to be trying to make things even harder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Ampersand; I don&#8217;t understand why a Wall should be built in a land-grabby way if it can be built in a clearly legal way. God knows, Israel exists in extreme conditions, but sometimes the current government seems to be trying to make things even harder.</p>
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		<title>By: Allison</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1332</link>
		<dc:creator>Allison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1332</guid>
		<description>Can you do another cartoon which would be as accurate, if not more so titled "Hamas prepares to negotiate?" 

In this one, please draw a Hamas terrorist blowing up a bus full of people, shooting and killing a little girl riding in a car, and blowing up a 60 year old shopkeeper with three kids. 

And then you can have him say, "Okay, NOW I'm ready to talk about a possible ceasefire." 

Then you can put the two cartoons side by side, and ask which one is more morally foul and horrible, building a wall, or murdering people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you do another cartoon which would be as accurate, if not more so titled &#8220;Hamas prepares to negotiate?&#8221; </p>
<p>In this one, please draw a Hamas terrorist blowing up a bus full of people, shooting and killing a little girl riding in a car, and blowing up a 60 year old shopkeeper with three kids. </p>
<p>And then you can have him say, &#8220;Okay, NOW I&#8217;m ready to talk about a possible ceasefire.&#8221; </p>
<p>Then you can put the two cartoons side by side, and ask which one is more morally foul and horrible, building a wall, or murdering people.</p>
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		<title>By: Janis</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1333</link>
		<dc:creator>Janis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1333</guid>
		<description>I think there's plenty of murder to go around, and at this point, the most egregious immorality going on over there seems to be "deliberately making oneself an obstacle to solving the fucking problem."  Translation: not wanting to solve the problem.  Not "not wanting to solve it at an unacceptable cost to oneself."  Not wanting to solve it &lt;i&gt;at all&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there&#8217;s plenty of murder to go around, and at this point, the most egregious immorality going on over there seems to be &#8220;deliberately making oneself an obstacle to solving the fucking problem.&#8221;  Translation: not wanting to solve the problem.  Not &#8220;not wanting to solve it at an unacceptable cost to oneself.&#8221;  Not wanting to solve it <i>at all</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Jake Squid</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1334</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake Squid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1334</guid>
		<description>Of course it is not Hamas that is taking part in the negotiations.  It is the Palestinian Authority.  Hamas is merely a group of extremists trying very hard to scuttle any negotiations.  And they're getting their way.

Or have I missed something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course it is not Hamas that is taking part in the negotiations.  It is the Palestinian Authority.  Hamas is merely a group of extremists trying very hard to scuttle any negotiations.  And they&#8217;re getting their way.</p>
<p>Or have I missed something?</p>
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		<title>By: Thlayli</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1335</link>
		<dc:creator>Thlayli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1335</guid>
		<description>If Abbas can't keep the terrorists from killing Israelis, and AFAICT he's not even trying, then there's no point in talking to him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Abbas can&#8217;t keep the terrorists from killing Israelis, and AFAICT he&#8217;s not even trying, then there&#8217;s no point in talking to him.</p>
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		<title>By: Jake Squid</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1336</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake Squid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1336</guid>
		<description>I see.  So Israel &#038; the US want to get rid of Arafat because he can't or won't stop the terrorists.  They're happy when he is replaced.  After two months (or is it longer), terrorist attacks keep happening (as do Israeli attacks) so Abbas is not even trying.  Abbas has no effective police force or military.  What does he (or the PA) need to do in order to convince you that he is trying?  I mean other than having no more terrorist attacks.  Which you might remember happened during the 90s while the Palestinians waited to see the Oslo Peace Accord come to fruition.

But really - I do wonder what Abbas (who has no police or military force) can do to satisfy those who hold him accountable for terrorist attacks carried out by various groups that are not the PA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see.  So Israel &#038; the US want to get rid of Arafat because he can&#8217;t or won&#8217;t stop the terrorists.  They&#8217;re happy when he is replaced.  After two months (or is it longer), terrorist attacks keep happening (as do Israeli attacks) so Abbas is not even trying.  Abbas has no effective police force or military.  What does he (or the PA) need to do in order to convince you that he is trying?  I mean other than having no more terrorist attacks.  Which you might remember happened during the 90s while the Palestinians waited to see the Oslo Peace Accord come to fruition.</p>
<p>But really - I do wonder what Abbas (who has no police or military force) can do to satisfy those who hold him accountable for terrorist attacks carried out by various groups that are not the PA.</p>
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		<title>By: Thlayli</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1337</link>
		<dc:creator>Thlayli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1337</guid>
		<description>So as you see it, Israel should stand back and allow the PA to build up a conventional army, which it promises to:
   a) use against Hamas/AAMB/etc
   b) *not* use against the IDF.

And they should trust Abbas to do this because...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So as you see it, Israel should stand back and allow the PA to build up a conventional army, which it promises to:<br />
   a) use against Hamas/AAMB/etc<br />
   b) *not* use against the IDF.</p>
<p>And they should trust Abbas to do this because&#8230;?</p>
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		<title>By: Ampersand</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1338</link>
		<dc:creator>Ampersand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1338</guid>
		<description>Allison, that wouldn't be a very funny cartoon. The closest I've ever come to that cartoon is &lt;a href="http://www.zmag.org/cartoons/show_toon.cfm?toonID=841&#038;toonList=1308,1251,1247,1248,1227,1223,1217,1206,1194,1185,1175,1162,1148,1129,1118,1100,1088,1076,1065,1061,1052,1029,1024,1017,1007,1002,998,992,977,968,964,946,938,930,921,912,885,873,869,856,850,841,839,809,803,794,780,774,764,759,750,725,710,712,705,702,697,691,663,651,639,628,609,598,574,568,565,554,545,532,527,525,515,510,502,496,479,467,459,441,438,431,425,418,413,400,378,372,370,358,353,328,319,307,305,303,301,300,290,287,286,285,284,277,271,272,270,262,258,250,247,241,238,234,226,218,209,208,202,191,190,189,188,187,186,181,178,171,165,161,138,137,136,135,134,132,115,112,108,105,102,99,88,85,82,78,75,68,70,71,72,73,74,69&#038;index=by_artist.cfm&#038;artist=10"&gt;this one&lt;/a&gt;, which isn't funny either.

I've never understood the implicit logic of comments like yours: Is pointing out that Hamas is scum (and of course, Hamas is scum) somehow an excuse for land-grabbing? Does the fact that the Israeli goverment isn't the most horrible entity in the world (and it's not, not by a long shot) make whatever wrongs Israel does commit okay?

Jake, Hamas is currently in negotiations for a cease-fire, which is different from the "road map" negotiations which get more press play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allison, that wouldn&#8217;t be a very funny cartoon. The closest I&#8217;ve ever come to that cartoon is <a href="http://www.zmag.org/cartoons/show_toon.cfm?toonID=841&#038;toonList=1308,1251,1247,1248,1227,1223,1217,1206,1194,1185,1175,1162,1148,1129,1118,1100,1088,1076,1065,1061,1052,1029,1024,1017,1007,1002,998,992,977,968,964,946,938,930,921,912,885,873,869,856,850,841,839,809,803,794,780,774,764,759,750,725,710,712,705,702,697,691,663,651,639,628,609,598,574,568,565,554,545,532,527,525,515,510,502,496,479,467,459,441,438,431,425,418,413,400,378,372,370,358,353,328,319,307,305,303,301,300,290,287,286,285,284,277,271,272,270,262,258,250,247,241,238,234,226,218,209,208,202,191,190,189,188,187,186,181,178,171,165,161,138,137,136,135,134,132,115,112,108,105,102,99,88,85,82,78,75,68,70,71,72,73,74,69&#038;index=by_artist.cfm&#038;artist=10">this one</a>, which isn&#8217;t funny either.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never understood the implicit logic of comments like yours: Is pointing out that Hamas is scum (and of course, Hamas is scum) somehow an excuse for land-grabbing? Does the fact that the Israeli goverment isn&#8217;t the most horrible entity in the world (and it&#8217;s not, not by a long shot) make whatever wrongs Israel does commit okay?</p>
<p>Jake, Hamas is currently in negotiations for a cease-fire, which is different from the &#8220;road map&#8221; negotiations which get more press play.</p>
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		<title>By: Allison</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1339</link>
		<dc:creator>Allison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1339</guid>
		<description>Amp,

The thing is, I don't see the Wall cartoon as funny, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amp,</p>
<p>The thing is, I don&#8217;t see the Wall cartoon as funny, either.</p>
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		<title>By: Imshin</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1340</link>
		<dc:creator>Imshin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1340</guid>
		<description>Like Allison, I also fail to see anything funny about the cartoon above. I find it mainly to express a complete misunderstanding of the situation. But then I'm Israeli, maybe it's some American humor thing that I don't get.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like Allison, I also fail to see anything funny about the cartoon above. I find it mainly to express a complete misunderstanding of the situation. But then I&#8217;m Israeli, maybe it&#8217;s some American humor thing that I don&#8217;t get.</p>
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		<title>By: parallel</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1341</link>
		<dc:creator>parallel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1341</guid>
		<description>The cartoon would be funny if the wall was being built in order to grab land. It isn't. It is being built to reduce the risk of attack against Israelis - a point which your cartoon completely dismisses.

Remember - no attacks, no wall. And no messy assassinations, road blocks, curfews either.

I also don't think that it is possible to consider Hamas as being entirely separate from the palestinian people as a whole. They have considerable support among the general community, and we are told that a majority of palestinians support their campaign of murder inside Israel itself. Perhaps this justifies snipping pieces off their prospective state. After all, there is nothing sacred about the Green Line - it was merely the cease-fire line after the first Arab-Israeli war.

I am equally unimpressed by the arguments that Abbas isn't suppressing Hamas because he hasn't the military force to do so. He has himself already stated that he wouldn't use force to stop Hamas. Nor has he employed any of the non-military means at his disposal, such as stopping incitement against Israelis in the media organs under his control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The cartoon would be funny if the wall was being built in order to grab land. It isn&#8217;t. It is being built to reduce the risk of attack against Israelis - a point which your cartoon completely dismisses.</p>
<p>Remember - no attacks, no wall. And no messy assassinations, road blocks, curfews either.</p>
<p>I also don&#8217;t think that it is possible to consider Hamas as being entirely separate from the palestinian people as a whole. They have considerable support among the general community, and we are told that a majority of palestinians support their campaign of murder inside Israel itself. Perhaps this justifies snipping pieces off their prospective state. After all, there is nothing sacred about the Green Line - it was merely the cease-fire line after the first Arab-Israeli war.</p>
<p>I am equally unimpressed by the arguments that Abbas isn&#8217;t suppressing Hamas because he hasn&#8217;t the military force to do so. He has himself already stated that he wouldn&#8217;t use force to stop Hamas. Nor has he employed any of the non-military means at his disposal, such as stopping incitement against Israelis in the media organs under his control.</p>
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		<title>By: Allison</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1342</link>
		<dc:creator>Allison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1342</guid>
		<description>Barry, to address your questions:
I've never understood the implicit logic of comments like yours: Is pointing out that Hamas is scum (and of course, Hamas is scum) somehow an excuse for land-grabbing? 

-- No, but the criticism of Israel's actions seems to be in a vacuum in which you don't seem to understand that these often unpleasant actions are taken in order to prevent this scum from killing people -- NOT in order to land-grab, and not as some kind of revenge. The wall is a security wall, and the reason that it is encroaching into the West Bank is to protect more human beings - who live in settlements. I, like you, don't agree with where it's being built, but I understand that the reason is to save more lives and not to "land-grab." 

You ask: Does the fact that the Israeli goverment isn't the most horrible entity in the world (and it's not, not by a long shot) make whatever wrongs Israel does commit okay?

No, but it is upsetting when Israel's actions are criticized as if they are occuring in a vacuum and not in a situation where Israel's citizens are being attacked and killed every day. I have to admit, it irks me when I see blogs that don't even acknowledge attack after attack after attack on Israelis, and then devote post after post to what happened to Rachel Corrie or to Rantisi or to curfews or to the Wall.

I deeply dislike knee-jerk reactions and un-thought-out stances when they come from the left or the right. As someone who has always identified as a left-wing Democrat, I guess I expect it more from the right, and am more perturbed and insulted when I find it on the left. I'm finding it more and more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barry, to address your questions:<br />
I&#8217;ve never understood the implicit logic of comments like yours: Is pointing out that Hamas is scum (and of course, Hamas is scum) somehow an excuse for land-grabbing? </p>
<p>&#8211; No, but the criticism of Israel&#8217;s actions seems to be in a vacuum in which you don&#8217;t seem to understand that these often unpleasant actions are taken in order to prevent this scum from killing people &#8212; NOT in order to land-grab, and not as some kind of revenge. The wall is a security wall, and the reason that it is encroaching into the West Bank is to protect more human beings - who live in settlements. I, like you, don&#8217;t agree with where it&#8217;s being built, but I understand that the reason is to save more lives and not to &#8220;land-grab.&#8221; </p>
<p>You ask: Does the fact that the Israeli goverment isn&#8217;t the most horrible entity in the world (and it&#8217;s not, not by a long shot) make whatever wrongs Israel does commit okay?</p>
<p>No, but it is upsetting when Israel&#8217;s actions are criticized as if they are occuring in a vacuum and not in a situation where Israel&#8217;s citizens are being attacked and killed every day. I have to admit, it irks me when I see blogs that don&#8217;t even acknowledge attack after attack after attack on Israelis, and then devote post after post to what happened to Rachel Corrie or to Rantisi or to curfews or to the Wall.</p>
<p>I deeply dislike knee-jerk reactions and un-thought-out stances when they come from the left or the right. As someone who has always identified as a left-wing Democrat, I guess I expect it more from the right, and am more perturbed and insulted when I find it on the left. I&#8217;m finding it more and more.</p>
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		<title>By: MFB</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1343</link>
		<dc:creator>MFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/06/18/wednesday-is-cartoon-day-the-wall/#comment-1343</guid>
		<description>Nice cartoon, shame about the debate. Palestinian-bashers always say "You haven't denounced the Palestinians enough! They are killing us, while all we are doing is killing them, stealing their land, torturing them, and suppressing their human and political rights! THEY are the evil incarnate! WE torturing, murdering oppressors are PURE!"

Waste of time arguing with such people, however polite and sincere they may be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice cartoon, shame about the debate. Palestinian-bashers always say &#8220;You haven&#8217;t denounced the Palestinians enough! They are killing us, while all we are doing is killing them, stealing their land, torturing them, and suppressing their human and political rights! THEY are the evil incarnate! WE torturing, murdering oppressors are PURE!&#8221;</p>
<p>Waste of time arguing with such people, however polite and sincere they may be.</p>
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