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	<title>Comments on: The same image in different times</title>
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	<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/</link>
	<description>Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jimmy Ho</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3388</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimmy Ho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3388</guid>
		<description>Ampersand, there has been a very similar cartoon by Brito in last week's "Canard enchaîné", France's oldest satirical paper, which has an lefty-to-anarchistic political leaning. The difference was that it showed Sharon standing alone in the middle of the "fenced" star, as a symbol of his absurd auto-isolation.
I couldn't help feeling uncomfortable when I saw it, because it reminded me all of a sudden of the well-known Seppla cartoon, which has been widely reproduced in every History classbook. Your interpretation is quite rational and convincing, though, as there IS an official Israeli plan to divide the Palestinian land, while the division of Europe allegedly operated by some "Jewish conspiracy" shown in the Nazi cartoon is nothing but a fantasmagorical claim right in the antisemitist tradition of forgeries like the "Protocols of the Wises of Zion" (sorry, I'm not sure about the English title).

It is interesting to see how the same idea came to the mind of at least two cartoonists. I would say they had some unconscious (and, in this case, unfortunate) reminiscence of the "original" cartoon, but I am not sure of how to explain it. I can scan and e-mail you the Brito cartoon, if you want to compare.

P.S.: may I ask if it is on purpose that you did not link to the original LGF post?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ampersand, there has been a very similar cartoon by Brito in last week&#8217;s &#8220;Canard enchaîné&#8221;, France&#8217;s oldest satirical paper, which has an lefty-to-anarchistic political leaning. The difference was that it showed Sharon standing alone in the middle of the &#8220;fenced&#8221; star, as a symbol of his absurd auto-isolation.<br />
I couldn&#8217;t help feeling uncomfortable when I saw it, because it reminded me all of a sudden of the well-known Seppla cartoon, which has been widely reproduced in every History classbook. Your interpretation is quite rational and convincing, though, as there IS an official Israeli plan to divide the Palestinian land, while the division of Europe allegedly operated by some &#8220;Jewish conspiracy&#8221; shown in the Nazi cartoon is nothing but a fantasmagorical claim right in the antisemitist tradition of forgeries like the &#8220;Protocols of the Wises of Zion&#8221; (sorry, I&#8217;m not sure about the English title).</p>
<p>It is interesting to see how the same idea came to the mind of at least two cartoonists. I would say they had some unconscious (and, in this case, unfortunate) reminiscence of the &#8220;original&#8221; cartoon, but I am not sure of how to explain it. I can scan and e-mail you the Brito cartoon, if you want to compare.</p>
<p>P.S.: may I ask if it is on purpose that you did not link to the original LGF post?</p>
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		<title>By: PinkDreamPoppies</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3389</link>
		<dc:creator>PinkDreamPoppies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3389</guid>
		<description>Daryl Cagle blogged about these two cartoons not too long ago.

For those who are unfamiliar with Mr. Cagle's cartoon index, he collects political cartoons from various cartoonists around the world and often sorts them into various categories (Michael Jackson, the Fall of Saddam's Statue, etc.) In these categories, he occaisionally points out what he calls yahtzee's, that is, five or more cartoonists who use the same idea.

As Mr. Cagle rightly points out, the use of the Star of David as a fence of some kind is hardly an uncommon image. I've seen it numerous times myself and I didn't really read political cartoons until recently. In my own experience, such images aren't always even used as a critique of Israel's policies (the image that immediately springs to mind is a cartoon I saw a few years ago with Arafat in the middle of the Star).

For those curious, Mr. Cagle links to two cartoons (&lt;a href="http://cagle.slate.msn.com//news/blog/BLOGgifs/gorrell3.gif"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href="http://cagle.slate.msn.com//news/blog/BLOGgifs/petar.gif"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;) that use the Star-of-David-as-a-fence imagery. Also, Mr. Cagle's blog can be found &lt;a href="http://cagle.slate.msn.com//news/BLOG/main.asp"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; (scroll down to August 5th for the entry concerning the two cartoons Amp discussed).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daryl Cagle blogged about these two cartoons not too long ago.</p>
<p>For those who are unfamiliar with Mr. Cagle&#8217;s cartoon index, he collects political cartoons from various cartoonists around the world and often sorts them into various categories (Michael Jackson, the Fall of Saddam&#8217;s Statue, etc.) In these categories, he occaisionally points out what he calls yahtzee&#8217;s, that is, five or more cartoonists who use the same idea.</p>
<p>As Mr. Cagle rightly points out, the use of the Star of David as a fence of some kind is hardly an uncommon image. I&#8217;ve seen it numerous times myself and I didn&#8217;t really read political cartoons until recently. In my own experience, such images aren&#8217;t always even used as a critique of Israel&#8217;s policies (the image that immediately springs to mind is a cartoon I saw a few years ago with Arafat in the middle of the Star).</p>
<p>For those curious, Mr. Cagle links to two cartoons (<a href="http://cagle.slate.msn.com//news/blog/BLOGgifs/gorrell3.gif">here</a> and <a href="http://cagle.slate.msn.com//news/blog/BLOGgifs/petar.gif">here</a>) that use the Star-of-David-as-a-fence imagery. Also, Mr. Cagle&#8217;s blog can be found <a href="http://cagle.slate.msn.com//news/BLOG/main.asp">here</a> (scroll down to August 5th for the entry concerning the two cartoons Amp discussed).</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3390</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3390</guid>
		<description>So ... if Israel is responsible for politicizing the Star of David, because they put it on their flag, then are all the countries with Christian crosses on their flags responsible for politicizing that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So &#8230; if Israel is responsible for politicizing the Star of David, because they put it on their flag, then are all the countries with Christian crosses on their flags responsible for politicizing that?</p>
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		<title>By: Arash</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3391</link>
		<dc:creator>Arash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3391</guid>
		<description>Agree with Ampersand.

&lt;a href="http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=7729#comments"&gt;LFG&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href="http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&#038;x_outlet=115&#038;x_article=522"&gt;Camera&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with Ampersand.</p>
<p><a href="http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=7729#comments">LFG</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&#038;x_outlet=115&#038;x_article=522">Camera</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ampersand</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3392</link>
		<dc:creator>Ampersand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3392</guid>
		<description>Simon, I'd say a lot of people are responsible for politicizing the cross - not just those countries, but folks like the Vatican and Jerry Fawell. But sure, a country that puts a cross on their flag has politicized the cross, in my view.

Jimmy, leaving out the link was an accident, which I've now corrected.

I don't find it remarkable that multiple cartoonists produce similar images - it happens all the time, frankly. (The week after 9/11 happened, I counted at least 20 different cartoonists who drew cartoons of the statue of liberty flinching.)

PGP and Jimmy, thanks for the additional info.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon, I&#8217;d say a lot of people are responsible for politicizing the cross - not just those countries, but folks like the Vatican and Jerry Fawell. But sure, a country that puts a cross on their flag has politicized the cross, in my view.</p>
<p>Jimmy, leaving out the link was an accident, which I&#8217;ve now corrected.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t find it remarkable that multiple cartoonists produce similar images - it happens all the time, frankly. (The week after 9/11 happened, I counted at least 20 different cartoonists who drew cartoons of the statue of liberty flinching.)</p>
<p>PGP and Jimmy, thanks for the additional info.</p>
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		<title>By: PinkDreamPoppies</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3393</link>
		<dc:creator>PinkDreamPoppies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3393</guid>
		<description>Simon asked, "&lt;i&gt;if Israel is responsible for politicizing the Star of David, because they put it on their flag, then are all the countries with Christian crosses on their flags responsible for politicizing that?"

While I suspect that the question was meant to be rhetorical, the answer is actually "yes." However, I think that your question misses the point.

Prior to the creation of the state of Israel, there was little else to associate the Star of David with than the Hebrew religion and its practitioners. When Israel was created and that nation chose to have the Star of David on its flag, the Star of David thereafter became a symbol for the nation as well as the religion. Because of Israel's controversial activities since its creation, the nation of Israel has, in many ways, supplanted the Hebrew religion as the dominant image associated with the Star of David. In other words, because the Star is a recognizable symbol and was voluntarily associated with the nation of Israel, it automatically becomes a political symbol in a way it wasn't previously; Israel's actions since then have simply strengthen this Star/nation association.

As to how the question concerning the Christian cross misses the point: among other things, there isn't a nation, particularly a controversial nation, that is the &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; nation in the world to have the Christian cross on its flag. Thus, the cross is not something that can be associated with just a single country (although outside of Europe and North America the cross is often used to symbolize the Western world as a whole). Without that linking of the Christian cross to a single nation, the cross cannot be used as a short-hand symbol for just that nation. Cartoonists, as you know, work with such short-hand symbols in order to satirize a situation in as small a space as possible.

On a somewhat more literal note: as soon as a nation places a symbol on its flag, that symbol becomes political in nature automatically regardless of any previous religious or cultural associations. I mean, it's on their flag.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon asked, &#8220;<i>if Israel is responsible for politicizing the Star of David, because they put it on their flag, then are all the countries with Christian crosses on their flags responsible for politicizing that?&#8221;</p>
<p>While I suspect that the question was meant to be rhetorical, the answer is actually &#8220;yes.&#8221; However, I think that your question misses the point.</p>
<p>Prior to the creation of the state of Israel, there was little else to associate the Star of David with than the Hebrew religion and its practitioners. When Israel was created and that nation chose to have the Star of David on its flag, the Star of David thereafter became a symbol for the nation as well as the religion. Because of Israel&#8217;s controversial activities since its creation, the nation of Israel has, in many ways, supplanted the Hebrew religion as the dominant image associated with the Star of David. In other words, because the Star is a recognizable symbol and was voluntarily associated with the nation of Israel, it automatically becomes a political symbol in a way it wasn&#8217;t previously; Israel&#8217;s actions since then have simply strengthen this Star/nation association.</p>
<p>As to how the question concerning the Christian cross misses the point: among other things, there isn&#8217;t a nation, particularly a controversial nation, that is the </i><i>only</i> nation in the world to have the Christian cross on its flag. Thus, the cross is not something that can be associated with just a single country (although outside of Europe and North America the cross is often used to symbolize the Western world as a whole). Without that linking of the Christian cross to a single nation, the cross cannot be used as a short-hand symbol for just that nation. Cartoonists, as you know, work with such short-hand symbols in order to satirize a situation in as small a space as possible.</p>
<p>On a somewhat more literal note: as soon as a nation places a symbol on its flag, that symbol becomes political in nature automatically regardless of any previous religious or cultural associations. I mean, it&#8217;s on their flag.</p>
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		<title>By: h</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3394</link>
		<dc:creator>h</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3394</guid>
		<description>yeah, right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yeah, right.</p>
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		<title>By: Elayne Riggs</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3395</link>
		<dc:creator>Elayne Riggs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3395</guid>
		<description>Agree with everything you say here, Barry.  The Mogen David is to Israel what the maple leaf is to Canada.  It's on their flag, it's fair game as representative of the state.  But I do like that it references (whether intentionally or not) the Seppla drawing (first time I remember ever seeing that one) because it deliberately invokes the "how can you to do others what was done to you?" question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with everything you say here, Barry.  The Mogen David is to Israel what the maple leaf is to Canada.  It&#8217;s on their flag, it&#8217;s fair game as representative of the state.  But I do like that it references (whether intentionally or not) the Seppla drawing (first time I remember ever seeing that one) because it deliberately invokes the &#8220;how can you to do others what was done to you?&#8221; question.</p>
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		<title>By: Ulrika O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3396</link>
		<dc:creator>Ulrika O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3396</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this.  It's a rare surprise to see reason and moderation of tone applied to issues that pertain to Israel.  The accusation of anti-Semitism is a truncheon much used for silencing legitimate political criticism of Israel, and I appreciate your taking time to refute an instance of it.  My general take on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict can be summed as "a plague on both their houses," but when Israeli-partisans get to the point of congratulating Israel for its "restraint" in not decimating Palestinian villages in reprisal (as in the comment section to LGF) I do wonder if it isn't time to concede defeat in the War on Parody.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this.  It&#8217;s a rare surprise to see reason and moderation of tone applied to issues that pertain to Israel.  The accusation of anti-Semitism is a truncheon much used for silencing legitimate political criticism of Israel, and I appreciate your taking time to refute an instance of it.  My general take on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict can be summed as &#8220;a plague on both their houses,&#8221; but when Israeli-partisans get to the point of congratulating Israel for its &#8220;restraint&#8221; in not decimating Palestinian villages in reprisal (as in the comment section to LGF) I do wonder if it isn&#8217;t time to concede defeat in the War on Parody.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3397</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3397</guid>
		<description>No, it wasn't meant as a rhetorical question.  If the answer had been "no," or "that's different" without an attempt to explain why, a whiff of anti-Semitism might have been in the air.  I'm pleased not to detect one.

Granted, the Christian cross can refer to many countries and the Jewish star to just one.  But that would be just as true even if no country had ever put either on any flag.  It's not the responsibility of the flag that there's only one Jewish country where there are many Christian countries.  I was postulating the point mutatis mutandis.

Oh, and it's generally referred to as the Jewish religion, not the Hebrew religion.  "Hebrew" is purely a cultural (and linguistic) term, not a religious term, at least in modern usage, whereas "Jewish" can be both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, it wasn&#8217;t meant as a rhetorical question.  If the answer had been &#8220;no,&#8221; or &#8220;that&#8217;s different&#8221; without an attempt to explain why, a whiff of anti-Semitism might have been in the air.  I&#8217;m pleased not to detect one.</p>
<p>Granted, the Christian cross can refer to many countries and the Jewish star to just one.  But that would be just as true even if no country had ever put either on any flag.  It&#8217;s not the responsibility of the flag that there&#8217;s only one Jewish country where there are many Christian countries.  I was postulating the point mutatis mutandis.</p>
<p>Oh, and it&#8217;s generally referred to as the Jewish religion, not the Hebrew religion.  &#8220;Hebrew&#8221; is purely a cultural (and linguistic) term, not a religious term, at least in modern usage, whereas &#8220;Jewish&#8221; can be both.</p>
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		<title>By: Jimmy Ho</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3398</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimmy Ho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3398</guid>
		<description>"Jimmy, leaving out the link was an accident, which I've now corrected."

Thank you. Just to avoid any misunderstanding, my question was not meant to be ironic, but, knowing your meticulous way of presenting things, I thought it was an upset reaction to LGF's biases (I've been there once or twice, and felt almost as bad as on the Free Republic forum).

"I don't find it remarkable that multiple cartoonists produce similar images - it happens all the time, frankly."

You are totally right, and Cagle's site, mentionned by PinkDreamPoppies, is the best demonstration of this phenomenon (by the way, Mikhaela B. Reid often uses Cagle's index to provide insightful compared analyses of various cartoons on a same issue). Actually, what strikes me is more the -probably unconscious- reminiscence of Seppla's cartoon by two or more lefty (or at least "non Nazi") cartoonists than the general fact that they had contemporaneously the same inspiration (but I formulated it way confusely, indeed). This is what leads me to disagree with Elayne Riggs: for me, the reference to Nazi propaganda (instead of Nazi policies, which would justify "the 'how can you to do others what was done to you?' question"), is so obvious that it ruins every possible impact of those anti-Sharon cartoons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Jimmy, leaving out the link was an accident, which I&#8217;ve now corrected.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thank you. Just to avoid any misunderstanding, my question was not meant to be ironic, but, knowing your meticulous way of presenting things, I thought it was an upset reaction to LGF&#8217;s biases (I&#8217;ve been there once or twice, and felt almost as bad as on the Free Republic forum).</p>
<p>&#8220;I don&#8217;t find it remarkable that multiple cartoonists produce similar images - it happens all the time, frankly.&#8221;</p>
<p>You are totally right, and Cagle&#8217;s site, mentionned by PinkDreamPoppies, is the best demonstration of this phenomenon (by the way, Mikhaela B. Reid often uses Cagle&#8217;s index to provide insightful compared analyses of various cartoons on a same issue). Actually, what strikes me is more the -probably unconscious- reminiscence of Seppla&#8217;s cartoon by two or more lefty (or at least &#8220;non Nazi&#8221;) cartoonists than the general fact that they had contemporaneously the same inspiration (but I formulated it way confusely, indeed). This is what leads me to disagree with Elayne Riggs: for me, the reference to Nazi propaganda (instead of Nazi policies, which would justify &#8220;the &#8216;how can you to do others what was done to you?&#8217; question&#8221;), is so obvious that it ruins every possible impact of those anti-Sharon cartoons.</p>
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		<title>By: PDM</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3399</link>
		<dc:creator>PDM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3399</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, the controversey over this points to the deep maliese amognst most post-Holocaust Jews---the fact that Israel and Zionism have become the be-all and end-all of Jewish idenity politics. The only parellel I can think of was the obsession with AIDS in the gay community during the time it was considered the "gay plauge."

Take for example, the controversey over the latest film by actor Mel Gibson. Frankly, from what I hear, the film (and Gibson himself) are very much guilty of stone-cold anti-Semitism. However, I cannot help but to think that the VERY pro-Zionist Anti-Defamition Leauge would not be raising a fuss about all this if Gibson were clever enough to proclaim his undying support of Israel. In fact, methinks Mel blew it, PR-wise, by also apparently also being anti-Zionist! Hence, he's a target of the ADL----unlike the Christian right, which now supports Israel-right-or-wrong.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, the controversey over this points to the deep maliese amognst most post-Holocaust Jews&#8212;the fact that Israel and Zionism have become the be-all and end-all of Jewish idenity politics. The only parellel I can think of was the obsession with AIDS in the gay community during the time it was considered the &#8220;gay plauge.&#8221;</p>
<p>Take for example, the controversey over the latest film by actor Mel Gibson. Frankly, from what I hear, the film (and Gibson himself) are very much guilty of stone-cold anti-Semitism. However, I cannot help but to think that the VERY pro-Zionist Anti-Defamition Leauge would not be raising a fuss about all this if Gibson were clever enough to proclaim his undying support of Israel. In fact, methinks Mel blew it, PR-wise, by also apparently also being anti-Zionist! Hence, he&#8217;s a target of the ADL&#8212;-unlike the Christian right, which now supports Israel-right-or-wrong&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: PinkDreamPoppies</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3400</link>
		<dc:creator>PinkDreamPoppies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3400</guid>
		<description>Simon,

Thanks for the correction about Jewish/Hebrew. I'm constantly forgetting which is the correct term for what but ususally end up erring toward Hebrew far too often. I suspect it comes from having done too many historical Bible studies, in which case everything is Hebrew.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon,</p>
<p>Thanks for the correction about Jewish/Hebrew. I&#8217;m constantly forgetting which is the correct term for what but ususally end up erring toward Hebrew far too often. I suspect it comes from having done too many historical Bible studies, in which case everything is Hebrew.</p>
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		<title>By: Kerim Friedman</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3401</link>
		<dc:creator>Kerim Friedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3401</guid>
		<description>Reminds me of a certain children's story about a boy who cried "Wolf!"...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reminds me of a certain children&#8217;s story about a boy who cried &#8220;Wolf!&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tom T.</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3402</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3402</guid>
		<description>Amp, you and I have disagreed in the past as to what is potentially anti-Semitic and what is not, but I'm on your side this time.  The Star of David is just such an easily-available, universally-applicable symbol for the state of Israel that it's not surprising that it shows up in a lot of cartoons and that there is a lot of overlap in how those cartoons use that symbol.  I have to think that, if one were to examine all of the cartoons depicting the US with an eagle, the Statue of Liberty, or Uncle Sam, one could find overlap between an American cartoonist's composition and some cartoon somewhere by by one of America's adversaries, but that would not, in my view, make the American cartoonist's work treasonous.

Certainly, if Auth did intend a deliberate allusion to the Nazi cartoon, then I would probably feel differently, but I have not heard any suggestion that he had any such intention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amp, you and I have disagreed in the past as to what is potentially anti-Semitic and what is not, but I&#8217;m on your side this time.  The Star of David is just such an easily-available, universally-applicable symbol for the state of Israel that it&#8217;s not surprising that it shows up in a lot of cartoons and that there is a lot of overlap in how those cartoons use that symbol.  I have to think that, if one were to examine all of the cartoons depicting the US with an eagle, the Statue of Liberty, or Uncle Sam, one could find overlap between an American cartoonist&#8217;s composition and some cartoon somewhere by by one of America&#8217;s adversaries, but that would not, in my view, make the American cartoonist&#8217;s work treasonous.</p>
<p>Certainly, if Auth did intend a deliberate allusion to the Nazi cartoon, then I would probably feel differently, but I have not heard any suggestion that he had any such intention.</p>
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		<title>By: bean</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3403</link>
		<dc:creator>bean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3403</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; well-known Seppla cartoon, which has been widely reproduced in every History classbook&lt;/i&gt;

I beg to differ. I've never seen this cartoon before in my life, and it's not because I wasn't reading my history books.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> well-known Seppla cartoon, which has been widely reproduced in every History classbook</i></p>
<p>I beg to differ. I&#8217;ve never seen this cartoon before in my life, and it&#8217;s not because I wasn&#8217;t reading my history books.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3404</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3404</guid>
		<description>The potential problem with this Auth cartoon is not so much the question of whether it's inherently anti-Semitic to depict the Star of David in this way, as it is the question of a reference to the earlier cartoon which was anti-Semitic.

Pink, in studies of the Biblical period, and the more so the earlier the period, "Hebrew" is often the correct term for all aspects, more so than "Jewish" which tends to refer to the religion as it existed after the destruction of the Second Temple.  The problem with using "Hebrew" for the modern religion is that it tends to conflate them, and carries an overtone of identifying Jews racially.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The potential problem with this Auth cartoon is not so much the question of whether it&#8217;s inherently anti-Semitic to depict the Star of David in this way, as it is the question of a reference to the earlier cartoon which was anti-Semitic.</p>
<p>Pink, in studies of the Biblical period, and the more so the earlier the period, &#8220;Hebrew&#8221; is often the correct term for all aspects, more so than &#8220;Jewish&#8221; which tends to refer to the religion as it existed after the destruction of the Second Temple.  The problem with using &#8220;Hebrew&#8221; for the modern religion is that it tends to conflate them, and carries an overtone of identifying Jews racially.</p>
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		<title>By: PinkDreamPoppies</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3405</link>
		<dc:creator>PinkDreamPoppies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3405</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I know. I just keep forgetting that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I know. I just keep forgetting that.</p>
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		<title>By: PinkDreamPoppies</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3406</link>
		<dc:creator>PinkDreamPoppies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3406</guid>
		<description>Also, I'm with bean on this one; I'd never seen the Seppla cartoon before in my life. I also have a small collection of history textbooks here in my room (all of which cover the twentieth century at least up to 1980) and not a single one of them has this cartoon in it.

Simon said, "&lt;i&gt;The potential problem with this Auth cartoon is not so much the question of whether it's inherently anti-Semitic to depict the Star of David in this way, as it is the question of a reference to the earlier cartoon which was anti-Semitic.&lt;/i&gt;"

That's what I was trying to get at with my previous post about Daryl Cagle's weblog and yahtzee's (found &lt;a href="http://cagle.slate.msn.com//news/BLOG/main.asp"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, scroll down to August 5th.) I think that in this particular instance, it's safer to assume that Mr. Auth was not intentionally referencing the Nazi cartoon than that he was. The same images appear time and time again in cartoonists' work and, frankly, the idea of the Star of David as a fence is pretty close to a non-brainer because it's a design made with a few simple lines that has segments in it. (Another example of a "no-brainer" were the cartoons memorializing the September 11th attacks by showing the Statue of Liberty weeping with the smoking New York skyline.) (Still another example of a no-brainer image, and probably one closer to the topic at hand, is the image of an eagle attacking something to symbolize American wrath. If an American cartoonist depicts, say, an eagle labelled "ACLU" attacking John Ashcroft holding a copy of the VICTORY Act, and over in Africa there's a cartoon printed that shows an eagle labelled "White Supremacy" attacking a black man, does this make the ACLU cartoon treasonous? Only if you're Ann Coulter, I imagine.)

Slightly off-topic, but I'm interested to see if anyone kicks up a controversy over Ted Rall's &lt;a href="http://www.ucomics.com/rallcom/2003/08/11/"&gt;latest cartoon&lt;/a&gt;. I doubt it, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, I&#8217;m with bean on this one; I&#8217;d never seen the Seppla cartoon before in my life. I also have a small collection of history textbooks here in my room (all of which cover the twentieth century at least up to 1980) and not a single one of them has this cartoon in it.</p>
<p>Simon said, &#8220;<i>The potential problem with this Auth cartoon is not so much the question of whether it&#8217;s inherently anti-Semitic to depict the Star of David in this way, as it is the question of a reference to the earlier cartoon which was anti-Semitic.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what I was trying to get at with my previous post about Daryl Cagle&#8217;s weblog and yahtzee&#8217;s (found <a href="http://cagle.slate.msn.com//news/BLOG/main.asp">here</a>, scroll down to August 5th.) I think that in this particular instance, it&#8217;s safer to assume that Mr. Auth was not intentionally referencing the Nazi cartoon than that he was. The same images appear time and time again in cartoonists&#8217; work and, frankly, the idea of the Star of David as a fence is pretty close to a non-brainer because it&#8217;s a design made with a few simple lines that has segments in it. (Another example of a &#8220;no-brainer&#8221; were the cartoons memorializing the September 11th attacks by showing the Statue of Liberty weeping with the smoking New York skyline.) (Still another example of a no-brainer image, and probably one closer to the topic at hand, is the image of an eagle attacking something to symbolize American wrath. If an American cartoonist depicts, say, an eagle labelled &#8220;ACLU&#8221; attacking John Ashcroft holding a copy of the VICTORY Act, and over in Africa there&#8217;s a cartoon printed that shows an eagle labelled &#8220;White Supremacy&#8221; attacking a black man, does this make the ACLU cartoon treasonous? Only if you&#8217;re Ann Coulter, I imagine.)</p>
<p>Slightly off-topic, but I&#8217;m interested to see if anyone kicks up a controversy over Ted Rall&#8217;s <a href="http://www.ucomics.com/rallcom/2003/08/11/">latest cartoon</a>. I doubt it, though.</p>
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		<title>By: flash mobber</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3407</link>
		<dc:creator>flash mobber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/08/11/the-same-image-in-different-times/#comment-3407</guid>
		<description>If you haven't heard of flash mobs, they are large groups of people that show up in a public place at a specific moment and perform synchronized actions for a short period of time, then quickly disperse. The intention of this is simply to have fun and make passersby stop and go, "Wait, what the hell was that?" If you would like to be part of the first known flash mob in Portland, please go to this site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PDXFM and join the group.  You will receive further information by way of email through the group.  Please send this message to everyone that you know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you haven&#8217;t heard of flash mobs, they are large groups of people that show up in a public place at a specific moment and perform synchronized actions for a short period of time, then quickly disperse. The intention of this is simply to have fun and make passersby stop and go, &#8220;Wait, what the hell was that?&#8221; If you would like to be part of the first known flash mob in Portland, please go to this site: <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PDXFM" rel="nofollow">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PDXFM</a> and join the group.  You will receive further information by way of email through the group.  Please send this message to everyone that you know.</p>
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