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	<title>Comments on: Musing on September in November</title>
	<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/</link>
	<description>Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 04:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Aakash</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6345</link>
		<dc:creator>Aakash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6345</guid>
		<description>To the blogger, and everyone else:

&lt;b&gt;HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!&lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the blogger, and everyone else:</p>
<p><b>HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!</b></p>
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		<title>By: Amanda</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6346</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6346</guid>
		<description>PDP:  Really excellent post, and one that effectively quantifies something I've been trying to wrap my arms around for quite some time.  I lost two friends that day: one was on the flight that crashed in PA and one was on the plane that hit the Pentagon. My grief felt private and I found myself struggling with the use of my friends' deaths as a political tool.  I still struggle with that, actually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PDP:  Really excellent post, and one that effectively quantifies something I&#8217;ve been trying to wrap my arms around for quite some time.  I lost two friends that day: one was on the flight that crashed in PA and one was on the plane that hit the Pentagon. My grief felt private and I found myself struggling with the use of my friends&#8217; deaths as a political tool.  I still struggle with that, actually.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6347</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6347</guid>
		<description>There is a new film out, "Love Actually". Very English. 

At one point there is a comment on Sept 11. It was that people on the planes and in the buildings who knew they were going to die, phoned their friends and familly. Not to preach hate about the attackers but to tell people they loved them.

Nick</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a new film out, &#8220;Love Actually&#8221;. Very English. </p>
<p>At one point there is a comment on Sept 11. It was that people on the planes and in the buildings who knew they were going to die, phoned their friends and familly. Not to preach hate about the attackers but to tell people they loved them.</p>
<p>Nick</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6348</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6348</guid>
		<description>Nice post, thanks.  What bothers me about the flags/stickers is that it seems to try to convince us that we are in some way underdogs in this fight, which in turn gives us permission to fight dirty, and not worry about niceties like the constitution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post, thanks.  What bothers me about the flags/stickers is that it seems to try to convince us that we are in some way underdogs in this fight, which in turn gives us permission to fight dirty, and not worry about niceties like the constitution.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6349</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6349</guid>
		<description>I disagree with the post.  Talking about September 11 is almost unavoidably political, even when (especially when) you're criticizing people for politicizing it.
A person's politics is to some extent a reflection of his or her moral beliefs and I don't see how you can say much about September 11 without talking about morality and the proper way to respond to such an event.   You shouldn't, IMO, claim you stand above the fray and throw darts in all directions.  If you actually lost someone on September 11, then personal grief will take precedence for you, but even then your moral views will intrude one way or another.  I've heard one person firsthand who lost someone on Sept. 11 who, one year later, openly declared that she was glad that sanctions were killing Iraqi children and she thought of it as payback.    She had listened to an anti-sanctions talk and that was her reaction.   Other people in the group agreed with her, one person saying that she wanted to kill "them" all.  So I think it's a little hard to separate politics from September 11.

Tens of thousands of people died on September 11 and die every day, many of them needlessly and tragically  and in ways that could be avoided if we were willing to spend a little money preventing it .  That's political.  Unless you happen to have lost someone on September 11, most people focus on it because of its political significance--3000 people were murdered as some sort of (sick, demented) statement.  People in the US took it as a direct personal assault, whether they knew any of the dead or not.    Most people in the US (including me) don't seem to feel that way about tragic deaths overseas, whether it is a massacre committed by a US ally or a terrorist attack on a US ally.  The fact that it occurred inside our borders made a big difference.

Incidentally, some people did change their views as a result of September 11--one could argue about Christopher Hitchens and his motivations,  but apart from him, I saw others break with the left on this, and I suspect  that it was because the victims of September 11 seemed real to them, while other atrocities were merely bloodless statistics to be used as debating points.  

On a personal note, I didn't know anyone who died on September 11, but I spent several hours in a state of panic, since I had friends and loved ones in lower Manhattan, though as it turned out none were in any danger.  But all through my hours of panic, I kept thinking  very political thoughts--"Someone is taking revenge" and "So this is what it's like to be bombed".  A rightwinger would interpret that as a leftwinger saying "we had it coming", but I can honestly say my feeling was "No one should ever have to feel this sense of fear and helplessness because some evil person beyond their control is attacking their country."  In fact, that was also one of my thoughts at the time, and frankly, I wish everyone had exactly that (political) reaction to it.  Whether I would have still felt that way if I had lost somebody  is something I thankfully didn't have to find out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with the post.  Talking about September 11 is almost unavoidably political, even when (especially when) you&#8217;re criticizing people for politicizing it.<br />
A person&#8217;s politics is to some extent a reflection of his or her moral beliefs and I don&#8217;t see how you can say much about September 11 without talking about morality and the proper way to respond to such an event.   You shouldn&#8217;t, IMO, claim you stand above the fray and throw darts in all directions.  If you actually lost someone on September 11, then personal grief will take precedence for you, but even then your moral views will intrude one way or another.  I&#8217;ve heard one person firsthand who lost someone on Sept. 11 who, one year later, openly declared that she was glad that sanctions were killing Iraqi children and she thought of it as payback.    She had listened to an anti-sanctions talk and that was her reaction.   Other people in the group agreed with her, one person saying that she wanted to kill &#8220;them&#8221; all.  So I think it&#8217;s a little hard to separate politics from September 11.</p>
<p>Tens of thousands of people died on September 11 and die every day, many of them needlessly and tragically  and in ways that could be avoided if we were willing to spend a little money preventing it .  That&#8217;s political.  Unless you happen to have lost someone on September 11, most people focus on it because of its political significance&#8211;3000 people were murdered as some sort of (sick, demented) statement.  People in the US took it as a direct personal assault, whether they knew any of the dead or not.    Most people in the US (including me) don&#8217;t seem to feel that way about tragic deaths overseas, whether it is a massacre committed by a US ally or a terrorist attack on a US ally.  The fact that it occurred inside our borders made a big difference.</p>
<p>Incidentally, some people did change their views as a result of September 11&#8211;one could argue about Christopher Hitchens and his motivations,  but apart from him, I saw others break with the left on this, and I suspect  that it was because the victims of September 11 seemed real to them, while other atrocities were merely bloodless statistics to be used as debating points.  </p>
<p>On a personal note, I didn&#8217;t know anyone who died on September 11, but I spent several hours in a state of panic, since I had friends and loved ones in lower Manhattan, though as it turned out none were in any danger.  But all through my hours of panic, I kept thinking  very political thoughts&#8211;&#8221;Someone is taking revenge&#8221; and &#8220;So this is what it&#8217;s like to be bombed&#8221;.  A rightwinger would interpret that as a leftwinger saying &#8220;we had it coming&#8221;, but I can honestly say my feeling was &#8220;No one should ever have to feel this sense of fear and helplessness because some evil person beyond their control is attacking their country.&#8221;  In fact, that was also one of my thoughts at the time, and frankly, I wish everyone had exactly that (political) reaction to it.  Whether I would have still felt that way if I had lost somebody  is something I thankfully didn&#8217;t have to find out.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6350</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6350</guid>
		<description>Donald:   I think you're right that moralism and political belief are often closely tied.   However, I see a difference between expressing a political opinion based upon personal belief and one that utilizes events simply to support a stance, regardless of one's own experience. 

See PDP's note:  "This is probably because I've noticed that pundits and politicians only bring up Septemeber 11th as a point of proof utilizing a tragedy to prove a point or leverage in an argument."  A good deal of the commentary around the events of September 11th seemed to have been used to support platforms -- and to me, that's tough to stomach.   I don't know that it's avoidable, though -- political stances rely on emotional responses to a good degree -- but it's been painful for me.  I'm not sure if it's been more painful because of the personal nature of my experience with that day or whether I would have the same reaction if I had not lost folks I cared about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Donald:   I think you&#8217;re right that moralism and political belief are often closely tied.   However, I see a difference between expressing a political opinion based upon personal belief and one that utilizes events simply to support a stance, regardless of one&#8217;s own experience. </p>
<p>See PDP&#8217;s note:  &#8220;This is probably because I&#8217;ve noticed that pundits and politicians only bring up Septemeber 11th as a point of proof utilizing a tragedy to prove a point or leverage in an argument.&#8221;  A good deal of the commentary around the events of September 11th seemed to have been used to support platforms &#8212; and to me, that&#8217;s tough to stomach.   I don&#8217;t know that it&#8217;s avoidable, though &#8212; political stances rely on emotional responses to a good degree &#8212; but it&#8217;s been painful for me.  I&#8217;m not sure if it&#8217;s been more painful because of the personal nature of my experience with that day or whether I would have the same reaction if I had not lost folks I cared about.</p>
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		<title>By: emo</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6351</link>
		<dc:creator>emo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6351</guid>
		<description>fyuj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fyuj</p>
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		<title>By: emo</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6352</link>
		<dc:creator>emo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6352</guid>
		<description>drtdfh</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>drtdfh</p>
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		<title>By: Medley</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6353</link>
		<dc:creator>Medley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/11/26/musing-on-september-in-november/#comment-6353</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Good Point&lt;/strong&gt;
PDP, posting at Alas, A Blog, reflects on September 11th in November. I don't agree
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Good Point</strong><br />
PDP, posting at Alas, A Blog, reflects on September 11th in November. I don&#8217;t agree</p>
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