Comments on: The problem of living without pain. http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/ Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about. Thu, 04 Dec 2008 21:45:40 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Stentor http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9419 Stentor Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9419 Singer's philosophy (and utilitarianism more generally) isn't about minimizing physical pain, though. It's about maximizing net happiness or satisfaction. The injuries the girl does to herself weigh on the "bad" side of utilitarian calculation just as much as the pain experienced does. If you were going to poke yourself in the eye anyway, then utilitarians would say it's better not to feel pain from doing it, but if it's a choice between poking your eye out without feeling anything and feeling pain that stops you from permanently damaging yourself, then you'd have to have a pretty distorted utility calculus to come down in favor of the former. Singer’s philosophy (and utilitarianism more generally) isn’t about minimizing physical pain, though. It’s about maximizing net happiness or satisfaction. The injuries the girl does to herself weigh on the “bad” side of utilitarian calculation just as much as the pain experienced does. If you were going to poke yourself in the eye anyway, then utilitarians would say it’s better not to feel pain from doing it, but if it’s a choice between poking your eye out without feeling anything and feeling pain that stops you from permanently damaging yourself, then you’d have to have a pretty distorted utility calculus to come down in favor of the former.

]]> By: Charles http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9420 Charles Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9420 Going further, the function of pain can be described as an aid to utilitarian calculations: "Does my interest in exploring what happens when I stick my finger in my eye outweigh the immediate pain it causes me?" The pain is essentially a built-in measurement of the long-term harm caused by the action, allowing one to weigh the immediate gain against an immediate (unnecessary) harm that serves as a proxy for inherent long-term harm. The girl's problem is not an over-interest in minimizing pain. The girl's problem is that she has no pain to minimize. Going further, the function of pain can be described as an aid to utilitarian calculations: “Does my interest in exploring what happens when I stick my finger in my eye outweigh the immediate pain it causes me?” The pain is essentially a built-in measurement of the long-term harm caused by the action, allowing one to weigh the immediate gain against an immediate (unnecessary) harm that serves as a proxy for inherent long-term harm.

The girl’s problem is not an over-interest in minimizing pain. The girl’s problem is that she has no pain to minimize.

]]> By: Lyn http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9421 Lyn Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9421 An excellent book on this subject: Frank T. Vertosick Jr, *Why We Hurt: A Natural History of Pain* An excellent book on this subject: Frank T. Vertosick Jr, *Why We Hurt: A Natural History of Pain*

]]> By: bad Jim http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9422 bad Jim Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9422 Socrates said the unexamined life is not worth living. We might generalize the point to assert that mechanisms lacking feedback are unlikely to thrive. Oliver Sacks, in <i>The Man Who Mistook His Wife for A Hat</i>, describes a young woman who lost proprioception - most of her sense of what her body was doing - as the result of anesthesia. The life she was left with was diminished, but at least at the time of the telling still worth living. Socrates said the unexamined life is not worth living. We might generalize the point to assert that mechanisms lacking feedback are unlikely to thrive.

Oliver Sacks, in The Man Who Mistook His Wife for A Hat, describes a young woman who lost proprioception - most of her sense of what her body was doing - as the result of anesthesia. The life she was left with was diminished, but at least at the time of the telling still worth living.

]]> By: kStyle http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9423 kStyle Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9423 Poor little girl. I don't know much about child development, but I don't get why she wouldn't realize, hey, I poked out an eye and I can't see so well now; maybe I shouldn't poke the other one. Seems like maybe that's a conclusion that can be reached without feeling pain. Maybe she was too young... Poor little girl. I don’t know much about child development, but I don’t get why she wouldn’t realize, hey, I poked out an eye and I can’t see so well now; maybe I shouldn’t poke the other one. Seems like maybe that’s a conclusion that can be reached without feeling pain. Maybe she was too young…

]]> By: Ide Cyan http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9424 Ide Cyan Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9424 Poor little <a href="http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/Stories/AlienJaneIntro.htm">Alien Jane</a>. Poor little Alien Jane.

]]> By: Nella http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9425 Nella Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9425 I don't agree with the comment about Singer's philosophy, since he's writing about minimising the harm done *to others*, ie by an external source. We can't feel other creatures' (human or otherwise) pain in a physical way anyway, unless we're talking metaphorically. This girl's problem is internal, that she doesn't know (yet: she could figure it out as she gets older) that things are harming her, due to lacking the normal physical response to pain. This is different from being abused avoidably by someone else. I don’t agree with the comment about Singer’s philosophy, since he’s writing about minimising the harm done *to others*, ie by an external source. We can’t feel other creatures’ (human or otherwise) pain in a physical way anyway, unless we’re talking metaphorically. This girl’s problem is internal, that she doesn’t know (yet: she could figure it out as she gets older) that things are harming her, due to lacking the normal physical response to pain. This is different from being abused avoidably by someone else.

]]> By: acm http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9426 acm Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9426 yeah, I think pain is most critical for children -- we learn many limits by the difference between "I'm (not) enjoying this" and "it hurts!" adults can be considered in a better position to look out for their interests, but a child can't really know the consequences, say, of not being able to see... yeah, I think pain is most critical for children — we learn many limits by the difference between “I’m (not) enjoying this” and “it hurts!” adults can be considered in a better position to look out for their interests, but a child can’t really know the consequences, say, of not being able to see…

]]> By: kStyle http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9427 kStyle Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9427 I think it's important to distinguish between pain and suffering. The girl can feel no pain, but her not feeling pain leads to suffering. I think it’s important to distinguish between pain and suffering. The girl can feel no pain, but her not feeling pain leads to suffering.

]]> By: painless http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9428 painless Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/the-problem-of-living-without-pain/#comment-9428 Interesting book about life and civilization without pain. > <a href="http://www.lifestudies.org/painless00.html"> Painless Civilization: A Philosophical Critique of Desire </a> Interesting book about life and civilization without pain.

> Painless Civilization: A Philosophical Critique of Desire

]]>