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	<title>Comments on: Woman charged with murder for refusing c-section</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/</link>
	<description>Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2</generator>
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		<title>By: jemale</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9429</link>
		<dc:creator>jemale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9429</guid>
		<description>Nevermind the fact that c-sections are more desirable to many hospitals from a cost/profit angle. 

So, scary, scary possible precedent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nevermind the fact that c-sections are more desirable to many hospitals from a cost/profit angle. </p>
<p>So, scary, scary possible precedent.</p>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9430</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9430</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;is not being asked to go under the knife &lt;b&gt;himself&lt;/b&gt;.&lt;/i&gt;
I'm only being nitpicky here because I know you know better, but what about parents who prefer feminine pronouns.  Surely they exist as well...  ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>is not being asked to go under the knife <b>himself</b>.</i><br />
I&#8217;m only being nitpicky here because I know you know better, but what about parents who prefer feminine pronouns.  Surely they exist as well&#8230;  ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Lachlan</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9431</link>
		<dc:creator>Lachlan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9431</guid>
		<description>I agree; dangerous precedents are being set here.

Also, I have to wonder how much her location (UT) had to do with this event? Would it have happened in CA, say?

A bunch of rabid anti-choice types went ballistic at the suggestion of a dangerous precedent being set in a similar thread at Wizbang; I'll say the same thing I said, and that Amp said: the facts are murky, at best.

And, where was the father of these twins? The most recent articles state she was estranged/divorced or had a boyfriend. I also had the same thought- was she mentally ill? The other thing that stuck me was that all her comments seemed really, really strange. The articles, so far, all appear VERY biased against her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree; dangerous precedents are being set here.</p>
<p>Also, I have to wonder how much her location (UT) had to do with this event? Would it have happened in CA, say?</p>
<p>A bunch of rabid anti-choice types went ballistic at the suggestion of a dangerous precedent being set in a similar thread at Wizbang; I&#8217;ll say the same thing I said, and that Amp said: the facts are murky, at best.</p>
<p>And, where was the father of these twins? The most recent articles state she was estranged/divorced or had a boyfriend. I also had the same thought- was she mentally ill? The other thing that stuck me was that all her comments seemed really, really strange. The articles, so far, all appear VERY biased against her.</p>
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		<title>By: bean</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9432</link>
		<dc:creator>bean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9432</guid>
		<description>With the way hospitals and doctors are pushing c-sections these days, I'd say this is a very, very dangerous precedent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With the way hospitals and doctors are pushing c-sections these days, I&#8217;d say this is a very, very dangerous precedent.</p>
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		<title>By: witness</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9433</link>
		<dc:creator>witness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9433</guid>
		<description>I agree-go to this website www.witnessreport.com and you will see what I mean.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree-go to this website <a href="http://www.witnessreport.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.witnessreport.com</a> and you will see what I mean.</p>
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		<title>By: Quadratic</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9434</link>
		<dc:creator>Quadratic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9434</guid>
		<description>If you witness a rape, and do nothing, you can go to prison (depraved indifference). It's my opinion, if you know you can save your child's life and don't, you should go to prison. 

It's also my opinion (as a parent) that this woman is a piece of human garbage. Maybe you have to have kids to understand this, but your health and happiness, even your very life, is secondary to your child's needs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you witness a rape, and do nothing, you can go to prison (depraved indifference). It&#8217;s my opinion, if you know you can save your child&#8217;s life and don&#8217;t, you should go to prison. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s also my opinion (as a parent) that this woman is a piece of human garbage. Maybe you have to have kids to understand this, but your health and happiness, even your very life, is secondary to your child&#8217;s needs.</p>
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		<title>By: Quadratic</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9435</link>
		<dc:creator>Quadratic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9435</guid>
		<description>I do reserve the right to change my judgment as more details of this case come to light. If this is a "pro-life (ahem) ANTI-CHOICE conspiracy, then...well...she's some kind of freaking roe V. wade Rosa Parks...right? HA.

Can't the media find a better picture of this woman? But then again...nothing screams "Baby Killer" like a nappy haired, lobotomy eyed, mouth-breather pic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do reserve the right to change my judgment as more details of this case come to light. If this is a &#8220;pro-life (ahem) ANTI-CHOICE conspiracy, then&#8230;well&#8230;she&#8217;s some kind of freaking roe V. wade Rosa Parks&#8230;right? HA.</p>
<p>Can&#8217;t the media find a better picture of this woman? But then again&#8230;nothing screams &#8220;Baby Killer&#8221; like a nappy haired, lobotomy eyed, mouth-breather pic.</p>
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		<title>By: Jenny</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9436</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9436</guid>
		<description>Quadratic:

Please go read the post at body and soul ( http://bodyandsoul.typepad.com/blog/2004/03/charges.htm ) and the responses to it.

Jean IS a mother and she certainly doesn't believe that the mother who is being charged is "human garbage."  In fact, I believe she argues quite successfully that part of the problem is that society has, perhaps inadvertantly, treated her (and, imho, consequently her children) like garbage through its failure to adress her mental health problems.

Secondly, I disagree, as do many, that the mother in question "[knew] [she] could save [her] child's life."  I have yet to hear it said that the doctors even claimed that a c-section was necessary to save either child's life; by all accounts I have read, they simply advised the procedure.

As Plig says more eloquently than I could on Jean's site:

"I don't see how someone can be prosecuted for not following medical advice.... Doctors have been known to make errors in judgment and advice, and we patients must be allowed to take that into account.

I'm pretty sure that, if she'd chosen to have the surgery and had then died...the medical staff would be the first to plead that she had chosen the operation of her own free will (and had signed a disclaimer to that effect)."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quadratic:</p>
<p>Please go read the post at body and soul ( <a href="http://bodyandsoul.typepad.com/blog/2004/03/charges.htm" rel="nofollow">http://bodyandsoul.typepad.com/blog/2004/03/charges.htm</a> ) and the responses to it.</p>
<p>Jean IS a mother and she certainly doesn&#8217;t believe that the mother who is being charged is &#8220;human garbage.&#8221;  In fact, I believe she argues quite successfully that part of the problem is that society has, perhaps inadvertantly, treated her (and, imho, consequently her children) like garbage through its failure to adress her mental health problems.</p>
<p>Secondly, I disagree, as do many, that the mother in question &#8220;[knew] [she] could save [her] child&#8217;s life.&#8221;  I have yet to hear it said that the doctors even claimed that a c-section was necessary to save either child&#8217;s life; by all accounts I have read, they simply advised the procedure.</p>
<p>As Plig says more eloquently than I could on Jean&#8217;s site:</p>
<p>&#8220;I don&#8217;t see how someone can be prosecuted for not following medical advice&#8230;. Doctors have been known to make errors in judgment and advice, and we patients must be allowed to take that into account.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure that, if she&#8217;d chosen to have the surgery and had then died&#8230;the medical staff would be the first to plead that she had chosen the operation of her own free will (and had signed a disclaimer to that effect).&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: neko (aka Sheelzebub)</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9437</link>
		<dc:creator>neko (aka Sheelzebub)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9437</guid>
		<description>Quadratic, this is the quote from that piece of human garbage:

"I've never refused a C-section. I've already had two prior C-sections. Why would I say something like that?"

And kindly stop your patronizing blather about how you can't possibly care about kids unless you have them.  Plenty of parents out there are pro-choice, and plenty of parents out there can sympathize with someone not wanting to be cut from the breastbone to the pubic bone--which is the impression a nurse said Rowland was given.  

If you care so much about kids, maybe you can push for better housing, schools that are structurally sound and well-supplied, and healthcare for the kids who are already walking the earth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quadratic, this is the quote from that piece of human garbage:</p>
<p>&#8220;I&#8217;ve never refused a C-section. I&#8217;ve already had two prior C-sections. Why would I say something like that?&#8221;</p>
<p>And kindly stop your patronizing blather about how you can&#8217;t possibly care about kids unless you have them.  Plenty of parents out there are pro-choice, and plenty of parents out there can sympathize with someone not wanting to be cut from the breastbone to the pubic bone&#8211;which is the impression a nurse said Rowland was given.  </p>
<p>If you care so much about kids, maybe you can push for better housing, schools that are structurally sound and well-supplied, and healthcare for the kids who are already walking the earth.</p>
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		<title>By: Z*lda</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9438</link>
		<dc:creator>Z*lda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9438</guid>
		<description>There's a really good commentary at Findlaw about this case, which talks about the uneccesarily high rate of C-sections in the U.S., and how prosecuting a woman for refusing to follow a doctor's advice would make a rotten precedent, considering that doctors can be wrong.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20040316.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a really good commentary at Findlaw about this case, which talks about the uneccesarily high rate of C-sections in the U.S., and how prosecuting a woman for refusing to follow a doctor&#8217;s advice would make a rotten precedent, considering that doctors can be wrong.<br />
<a href="http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20040316.html" rel="nofollow">http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20040316.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: jenny</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9439</link>
		<dc:creator>jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9439</guid>
		<description>"And kindly stop your patronizing blather about how you can't possibly care about kids unless you have them"

Thank you neko, I couldn't quite figure how to say that without sounding like an ass.

I've always suspected that the parents who assert that people without kids can't possibly care enough to make any type of informed decision regarding policies that affect children and parents are the type that didn't care about polices affecting children until they became parents.

The type that voted against school bonds before they became parents, campaigned for school bonds once they became parents, and will likely go back to voting against school bonds once their kids have graduated.

You know, like the parents who were all up in arms because my local school district planned on putting the new high school in (gasp!) a residential area of all places. (Unruly teenagers walking down the street while my cute little kindergardener plays in the front yard? Never, you baby-hating politicians!)  They, of course, changed their tune once they heard about all the fancy stuff that would be going into the new school, and then realized that THEIR kids would get to use all that fancy stuff in another few years, instead of being stuck at the old school.

And for anyone who thinks that I exaggerate, my bio teacher, who lived in the area, spent quite a  lot of time complaining to the class about the location of the school, until the day he came in rhapsodizing about the equipment he would get to use if he was able to get transferred there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And kindly stop your patronizing blather about how you can&#8217;t possibly care about kids unless you have them&#8221;</p>
<p>Thank you neko, I couldn&#8217;t quite figure how to say that without sounding like an ass.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always suspected that the parents who assert that people without kids can&#8217;t possibly care enough to make any type of informed decision regarding policies that affect children and parents are the type that didn&#8217;t care about polices affecting children until they became parents.</p>
<p>The type that voted against school bonds before they became parents, campaigned for school bonds once they became parents, and will likely go back to voting against school bonds once their kids have graduated.</p>
<p>You know, like the parents who were all up in arms because my local school district planned on putting the new high school in (gasp!) a residential area of all places. (Unruly teenagers walking down the street while my cute little kindergardener plays in the front yard? Never, you baby-hating politicians!)  They, of course, changed their tune once they heard about all the fancy stuff that would be going into the new school, and then realized that THEIR kids would get to use all that fancy stuff in another few years, instead of being stuck at the old school.</p>
<p>And for anyone who thinks that I exaggerate, my bio teacher, who lived in the area, spent quite a  lot of time complaining to the class about the location of the school, until the day he came in rhapsodizing about the equipment he would get to use if he was able to get transferred there.</p>
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		<title>By: annatopia</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9440</link>
		<dc:creator>annatopia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9440</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;a myriad of issues&lt;/strong&gt;
i don't know where to start today. i can promise you right now that this will probably not make any</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>a myriad of issues</strong><br />
i don&#8217;t know where to start today. i can promise you right now that this will probably not make any</p>
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		<title>By: annatopia</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9441</link>
		<dc:creator>annatopia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9441</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;a myriad of issues&lt;/strong&gt;
i don't know where to start today. i can promise you right now that this will probably not make any</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>a myriad of issues</strong><br />
i don&#8217;t know where to start today. i can promise you right now that this will probably not make any</p>
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		<title>By: annatopia</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9442</link>
		<dc:creator>annatopia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9442</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;i hate the american right wing&lt;/strong&gt;
i need to expand on my statement in my last post about hating the american right wing. today the SLC</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>i hate the american right wing</strong><br />
i need to expand on my statement in my last post about hating the american right wing. today the SLC</p>
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		<title>By: annatopia</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9443</link>
		<dc:creator>annatopia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9443</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;a myriad of issues&lt;/strong&gt;
i don't know where to start today. i can promise you right now that this will probably not make any</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>a myriad of issues</strong><br />
i don&#8217;t know where to start today. i can promise you right now that this will probably not make any</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: annatopia</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9444</link>
		<dc:creator>annatopia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/12/woman-charged-with-murder-for-refusing-c-section/#comment-9444</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;i hate the american right wing&lt;/strong&gt;
i need to expand on my statement in my last post about hating the american right wing. today the SLC
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>i hate the american right wing</strong><br />
i need to expand on my statement in my last post about hating the american right wing. today the SLC</p>
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