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	<title>Comments on: Same-sex marriage: that&#8217;s what it&#8217;s all about</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/</link>
	<description>Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 23:41:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Hestia</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9741</link>
		<dc:creator>Hestia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9741</guid>
		<description>What do you think about the article's overarching argument: that gay marriage should be left up to the states rather than the federal government? I'm not sure I buy it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What do you think about the article&#8217;s overarching argument: that gay marriage should be left up to the states rather than the federal government? I&#8217;m not sure I buy it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ampersand</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9742</link>
		<dc:creator>Ampersand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9742</guid>
		<description>Hestia - I think that same-sex couples have a 14th Amendment right to equal treatment under the law, including marriage law. So I don't think states should have the right to refuse same-sex marriage, any more than they have the right to refuse Jewish marriage. State's rights, in this case, should be overruled by individual rights guaranteed all of us in the Constitution.

Until the Supreme Court rules that same-sex couples have a 14th amendment right to marry, however, my opinion means squat. :-)

On the ohter hand....

As a matter of strategy, I think that we might be better off if gay marriage exists for several years in a few states before being forced on the whole country. If gay marriage exists for a while, it'll become much harder for the homophobes to attack gay marriage, because they will no longer be talking about a faceless, nameless horror; they'll be talking about legally breaking up the marriages and families of real people. It'll also become much harder for them to claim that gay marriage will cause the sky to fall, or bring about the end of straight marriage, or whatnot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hestia - I think that same-sex couples have a 14th Amendment right to equal treatment under the law, including marriage law. So I don&#8217;t think states should have the right to refuse same-sex marriage, any more than they have the right to refuse Jewish marriage. State&#8217;s rights, in this case, should be overruled by individual rights guaranteed all of us in the Constitution.</p>
<p>Until the Supreme Court rules that same-sex couples have a 14th amendment right to marry, however, my opinion means squat. :-)</p>
<p>On the ohter hand&#8230;.</p>
<p>As a matter of strategy, I think that we might be better off if gay marriage exists for several years in a few states before being forced on the whole country. If gay marriage exists for a while, it&#8217;ll become much harder for the homophobes to attack gay marriage, because they will no longer be talking about a faceless, nameless horror; they&#8217;ll be talking about legally breaking up the marriages and families of real people. It&#8217;ll also become much harder for them to claim that gay marriage will cause the sky to fall, or bring about the end of straight marriage, or whatnot.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9743</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9743</guid>
		<description>I really enjoyed the ever-devilish &lt;a href="http://counterpunch.org/cockburn03202004.html"&gt;Alexander Cockburn's&lt;/a&gt; take on the issue. How can you not love the guy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really enjoyed the ever-devilish <a href="http://counterpunch.org/cockburn03202004.html">Alexander Cockburn&#8217;s</a> take on the issue. How can you not love the guy?</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick O</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9744</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick O</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9744</guid>
		<description>I thought it was a pretty sad article in it's primary argument - allowing states to decide on SSM.
There is so much wrong with it, it's hard to know where to begin.

He seems to think that things would be better 
if the Supremes hadn't done Roe v. Wade and we would have abortion legal in some states and not others -- well I was THERE before Roe v. Wade 
and I can assure you that the knowledge that
abortion was legal 500 miles away was of no
comfort to the poor and the young who were 
"in trouble" and sought illegal and back alley 
abortions.
Things were fine for the middle class housewife
but otherwise it was terrible.

In fact, the "federalist" solution has NEVER worked
in any case where a minority was seeking equal rights.
The majority is never kindly disposed towards
human rights and it always required a judiciary to force the case - or, in the one counter example,
a civil war.

Worst opinion ever (tm Matt Groening)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought it was a pretty sad article in it&#8217;s primary argument - allowing states to decide on SSM.<br />
There is so much wrong with it, it&#8217;s hard to know where to begin.</p>
<p>He seems to think that things would be better<br />
if the Supremes hadn&#8217;t done Roe v. Wade and we would have abortion legal in some states and not others &#8212; well I was THERE before Roe v. Wade<br />
and I can assure you that the knowledge that<br />
abortion was legal 500 miles away was of no<br />
comfort to the poor and the young who were<br />
&#8220;in trouble&#8221; and sought illegal and back alley<br />
abortions.<br />
Things were fine for the middle class housewife<br />
but otherwise it was terrible.</p>
<p>In fact, the &#8220;federalist&#8221; solution has NEVER worked<br />
in any case where a minority was seeking equal rights.<br />
The majority is never kindly disposed towards<br />
human rights and it always required a judiciary to force the case - or, in the one counter example,<br />
a civil war.</p>
<p>Worst opinion ever (tm Matt Groening)</p>
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		<title>By: Sheelzebub</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9745</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheelzebub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9745</guid>
		<description>Cockburn's argument echoes the other arguments against other movements--oh, it's not radical enough, not important enough, etc.  The thing is, some people &lt;i&gt;want&lt;/i&gt; to be able to marry each other, and I don't see why it's skin off of anyone's ass whether they do or not.

If "radical gay activists" want to change society and marriage, great.  But that doesn't help the gay couple that wants to get married, have next-of-kin rights, custody rights, and all of the ensuing rights and responsibilities that come with marriage.  The argument he brought up about heteosexual couples who live together and don't get married benefits ignores one crucial thing--*they* have the option to get married and get those benefits if they choose.  Gays *don't*.

It's all well and good to pooh-pooh the issue; but when you are denied access to your lover because she's in the ICU and you aren't considered legally "family" it's a big deal.  When your lover dies and you don't have the right to inherit the home you both lived in because he's not legally your spouse, it's an issue.  And unlike het couples who want to make a statement against marriage  or who don't want to marry, gays don't have the luxury of choice.  Hets can choose to get married and enjoy the benefits of marriage.  Gays can't.  And that's wrong.

You think marriage is an unequal institution, that it's unfair for people who are married to have family benefits that unmarried couples don't have, fine.  Work to increase rights for all.  I don't see how it's constructive to dismiss the wishes of gays who would like to marry, or to cast aspersions on their dedication to the cause for wanting to commit.  Sadly, it's the people who treat gay marriage as a zero-sum game who have fallen prey to a shrivelling imagination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cockburn&#8217;s argument echoes the other arguments against other movements&#8211;oh, it&#8217;s not radical enough, not important enough, etc.  The thing is, some people <i>want</i> to be able to marry each other, and I don&#8217;t see why it&#8217;s skin off of anyone&#8217;s ass whether they do or not.</p>
<p>If &#8220;radical gay activists&#8221; want to change society and marriage, great.  But that doesn&#8217;t help the gay couple that wants to get married, have next-of-kin rights, custody rights, and all of the ensuing rights and responsibilities that come with marriage.  The argument he brought up about heteosexual couples who live together and don&#8217;t get married benefits ignores one crucial thing&#8211;*they* have the option to get married and get those benefits if they choose.  Gays *don&#8217;t*.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s all well and good to pooh-pooh the issue; but when you are denied access to your lover because she&#8217;s in the ICU and you aren&#8217;t considered legally &#8220;family&#8221; it&#8217;s a big deal.  When your lover dies and you don&#8217;t have the right to inherit the home you both lived in because he&#8217;s not legally your spouse, it&#8217;s an issue.  And unlike het couples who want to make a statement against marriage  or who don&#8217;t want to marry, gays don&#8217;t have the luxury of choice.  Hets can choose to get married and enjoy the benefits of marriage.  Gays can&#8217;t.  And that&#8217;s wrong.</p>
<p>You think marriage is an unequal institution, that it&#8217;s unfair for people who are married to have family benefits that unmarried couples don&#8217;t have, fine.  Work to increase rights for all.  I don&#8217;t see how it&#8217;s constructive to dismiss the wishes of gays who would like to marry, or to cast aspersions on their dedication to the cause for wanting to commit.  Sadly, it&#8217;s the people who treat gay marriage as a zero-sum game who have fallen prey to a shrivelling imagination.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9746</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9746</guid>
		<description>I didn't mean I &lt;i&gt;agreed&lt;/i&gt; with him. I just find him amusing. I think gay marriage is just fine. Whatever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t mean I <i>agreed</i> with him. I just find him amusing. I think gay marriage is just fine. Whatever.</p>
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		<title>By: Galois</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9747</link>
		<dc:creator>Galois</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/03/23/same-sex-marriage-thats-what-its-all-about/#comment-9747</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Starve the Children&lt;/strong&gt;
Ampersand believes that Rauch has identified one of the major problems with the policy objections to same-sex marriage--namely the seeming indifference of opponents to how marriage would help gay people. I agree. I'm reminded of parents telling their k...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Starve the Children</strong><br />
Ampersand believes that Rauch has identified one of the major problems with the policy objections to same-sex marriage&#8211;namely the seeming indifference of opponents to how marriage would help gay people. I agree. I&#8217;m reminded of parents telling their k&#8230;</p>
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