In _The Gulag Archipelago,_ Solzenitsyn writes about woman torturers sometimes being brought in specifically when the torture planned for male prisoners involved sexual humiliation–presumably because it was understood that the prisoners found their treatment even more psychologically devestating when it was perpetrated by, or even witnessed by, a woman. I cannot help but imagine that this effect would be even more pronounced for prisoners whose culture is so very strongly oriented against heterosocial contact.

I was not surprised to see a female soldier in those photographs. It did surprise me that others should have been so surprised, though.

And I don’t think women are “the angel of the household,” either.

By FAR, more men commit sexual assault than women. Why is it surprising when a woman finds it surprising that another woman has joined a humiliation ritual that is *most often* perpetrated by men?

Yes, you can find other instances of women committing atrocities throughout history. But the fact remains that women lag behind men in this type of action.

Ultimately, I think it is about power. When you have it over someone, chances are, you’ll abuse it (and them). She had some power, she had some encouragement, and she abused.

Do people think it’s okay to treat women like that? That it’s no big deal to us?

Exactly.

This is not to imply that women would only participate under threat, implied or overt. I doubt it’s that simple.

There is if she is both self-aware and aware of the greater chance that she will be a victim of sexual violance than, say, the average adult male.

My husband walks down the street at night completely unconcerned about a potential sexual assault against him. The potential for sexual violence against me enters my mind even during the day; I’ve thought about it once or twice when alone with a man I didn’t know on an elevator, for example.

I am just simply more tuned into sexual violence as an issue than most of the men I know. Maybe I’m just different from all other men and women. Who knows?

But if you read the last sentence of the blurb Amp quoted from my blog, you’ll see that I make the same point as Amp and some commenters: that the female soldier gave in to the mob mentality. In fact, my entire post is about *human nature*, not man or woman nature.

I meant to include a comment about your “mob mentality” comment, but forgot to. I wasn’t being critical of your post or saying that you didn’t get it; I just found your comment to be in line with many others I have seen.

Your saying that she was joining into the mob mentality cuts to the heart of the whole matter. I’m sorry if you felt that I was misquoting or misrepresenting what you’d said.

Yes, we should be shocked and appalled that people treat each other so badly, and that should start here in the US. Hazing is hazing, and when we treat our soldiers like crap, it’s not that surprising that they treat others the same way.

And I don’t think women are “the angel of the household,” either.

No, and you said as much in your original post, which was indeed, as you say, posing a question about human nature and not expressing any form of essentialist belief in the superiority of
women. I’m very sorry if I implied otherwise; such was not at all my intent.

I was really speaking more generally — I’ve seen a lot of expressions of “omg there was a WOMAN there!” sentiment floating around since that news broke — but looking it over, I realize that it did seem as if I was addressing your article in particular, since it was the one Pink Dream Poppies linked to and did include the word “surprise.” Again, sorry about that. That was rather careless of me.

By FAR, more men commit sexual assault than women. Why is it surprising when a woman finds it surprising that another woman has joined a humiliation ritual that is *most often* perpetrated by men?

I can see your point. I guess I found it a bit surprising mainly because it is actually quite common practice, in places where torture is regularly used, to bring in a woman as witness to a man’s sexual humiliation. It’s established technique, and it’s also one that our dear “School Formerly Known As The School of the Americas” is known to have trained its people in before sending them down south to Latin America. (A computer crash last month blitzed my bookmarks, but I can try to hunt down a link for that one, if you like. It’s not stuff to be read while depressed, though, or if in a squeamish frame of mind. Horrible.)

Yes, you can find other instances of women committing atrocities throughout history. But the fact remains that women lag behind men in this type of action.

They do, but I tend to think that that’s more a matter of opportunity and, well, and of discrimination, as weird as that may sound. Perhaps I merely have a bleak view of human nature, but I expect that the more women we have serving in our armed forces, the more women we’ll have committing the kind of atrocities that soldiers commit.

In order to change that, I think that we’ll have to change what it means to be a “soldier,” and that might take a while.

Sheelzebub:

Ultimately, I think it is about power. When you have it over someone, chances are, you’ll abuse it (and them). She had some power, she had some encouragement, and she abused.

Yeah, exactly.

I don’t think that I agree that a woman is less likely to be an abuser “if she is both self-aware and aware of the greater chance that she will be a victim of sexual violance than, say, the average adult male.” I think that often such an awareness can actually work the other way, in much the same way that children who are bullied often turn around and themselves bully younger or even more vulnerable children.

In a group situation such as a military, it would not surprise me to learn that female soldiers were even less likely to balk at such mistreatment of prisoners than their male counterparts, not only because their minority status makes it even more difficult for them to be accepted as part of the group (your “mob mentality” factor, with which I agree), but also because awareness of their own vulnerability might make it harder for them to take the risk of being the lone dissenter. “Better you than me, pal,” is not a very nice sentiment. But it is a very human one.

Oh, and I too am somewhat bothered by the screams of outrage that male rape always seems to elicit, while the rape of women goes unremarked. “Oh my God! They raped a MAN!”

Not that anyone should ever be raped, of course. But the idea that it’s particularly bad to rape men, because to do so is ::gasp:: to treat them like WOMEN (the horror!) is a cultural construct that as a woman I do find particularly insulting and irksome.

Elkins

What would the reaction be in the US if the hoods were on the other heads? I’m sure that it would be outrage at the mistreatement of our countrymen, but would the outrage be fueled by humiliation to the same extent? I don’t think so. In mid-eastern & far-eastern cultures humiliation seems to be a much stronger motivator than it does in western culture. In western culture humiliation seems to be part of the method of acceptance into groups (military, fraternity/sorority, athletic group, etc.) rather than a means to keep people on culturally accepted paths. (Not to mention a large part of certain consensual sexual behaviours).

I’ll have to think more about this and see if I can be any more coherent on the matter.

Sorry if I misunderstood your post/comments. [And sorry for not realizing you wrote the post and not Amp, PDP!] I’m either overly defensive or an egomaniac. I’ll let you pick. 8-)

Thanks for the clarification.

This is an excellent discusssion over here at Alas, as always.

Check me on this.