Regarding Amy Richards & Abortion
| July 22nd, 2004Amy Richards has been condemned a lot this week for this NYT article, mostly (but not exclusively) on the right half of the blogoverse.
Richards - who many Alas readers are familiar with as the co-author of Manifesta - was pregnant with triplets, and chose to abort two of the eight-week-old embryos so that she could give birth to only one child. From the article (which is not written by her, but “as told to Amy Barrett”):
The specialist called me back at 10 p.m. I had just finished watching a Boston Pops concert at Symphony Hall. As everybody burst into applause, I watched my cellphone vibrating, grabbed it and ran into the lobby. He told me that he does a detailed sonogram before doing a selective reduction to see if one fetus appears to be struggling. The procedure involves a shot of potassium chloride to the heart of the fetus. There are a lot more complications when a woman carries multiples. And so, from the doctor’s perspective, it’s a matter of trying to save the woman this trauma.
Many folks - even pro-choice folks - have been very disturbed by this article. I don’t see what the problem is.
Not being of an original frame of mind today, I’m just going to quote some of the better comments I’ve seen. From Majikthise:
However, for those who argue that one needs some “better” reason to have an abortion, let’s look a the facts of Richards’ case. As a single mother, Richards felt that she could provide a good home for one kid but not for triplets. If you think it frivolous to balk at the costs of two extra babies, imagine the difficulty of securing childcare for three infants, or the expense of keeping them fed, clothed and diapered. Three college savings plans… So, Richards bravely chose to bear exactly the number of babies she wanted. If those aren’t good reasons, I don’t know what are.
Besides, Richards and her partner plan to have more children when they are ready. When spacing births by selective abortion means a better life for the mother and her entire family, we should celebrate the practice.
She goes on to make good comments about the medical issues - having triplets really isn’t as safe as having just one baby, for either the mother or the infant. Read the whole thing.
In the comments at Unfogged, FL wrote:
Having the selective reduction doesn’t seem crazy to me– is it crazy to have an abortion for similar reasons after condom failure? This is one of the classic test cases, and most “pro-choice” people think that abortion is permissible in such a circumstance. Are the odds of triplets that much greater than condom failure? I’m not seeing the case for hell yet…
Also in the comments of Unfogged, PZ Myers - who also wrote a good post on his own blog - wrote:
If you want to go bankrupt, try having a premature baby. Try having three. This isn’t a matter of just having to absorb the costs of an ordinary-sized family all at once, we’re talking about a vast increase in expense.
Mortality rates skyrocket with multiples. For single births in the US, death rates at birth are 2.7 per 1,000. For twins, 37; for triplets, 52; for more, 231.
Pre-term multiples tend to be low birth-weight. This is strongly correlated with the incidence of disabilities like mental retardation and cerebral palsy. The mothers also face greater risks of complications like gestational diabetes and pre-eclampsia. These problems can be minimized by more intensive care during the pregnancy, which the article mentioned.
Seriously, we human beings are MUCH better off having our kids one at a time. We just aren’t very good at handling more.
This was followed up by a comment by Cardinal Fang, who wrote:
That’s more than “a little inconvenience.” Each baby has a five percent chance of dying, and even if a baby survives it’s likely to have lifelong problems.
Abortion is a means of controlling the number and frequency of bearing children. Richards’ reasons for wanting to control her reproduction were stated a bit flippantly by the writer, but they are not, as so many have argued, trivial. Wanting to have a career is not a trivial concern. The difference between raising a first baby and raising newborn triplets is not trivial. The health concerns that come with bearing triplets are not trivial.
That so many people - even some pro-choice people - were prepared to make a snap judgment that these are trivial or unimportant concerns convinces me, more than ever, that it would be a disaster to place the abortion decision in anyone’s hands but the mother’s.
* * *
In addition to the posts I linked to above, here are some other posts discussing Amy Richards’ abortion:
- Trish Wilson has a good, not-easy-to-quote-a-small-bit-of post on the matter.
- Professor Bainbridge gets the prize for most over-the-top pro-life comment: “It is hard to see how any one with normal human values could find common ground with the author of this essay, whose morality differs but little from Hitler’s executioners or the Rwandan genocidal killers.”
- The pro-choice UNF at Unfogged - whose readers had many super-intelligent comments, some of which I quoted above - is barely any better than Bainbridge. “… when you have the motives expressed in this article, you ought to be sent to jail. Because you’re certainly going to be sent to hell.” Yes, this woman wanted to have a career and control her own childrearing - how evil of her!
- Hugo Schwyzer is also pro-life, but he at least let a little humanity sneak into his judgment of Amy Richards, which makes him better than Bainbridge.
- Mousewords has a harsh - but I think often on target - critique of Hugo Schwyzer’s post.
- I disagree with just about everything on Sed Contra, but this post nonetheless struck me as the most thoughtful and interesting pro-life post I’ve read on the Amy Richards matter (although it’s also over-the-top in its comparisons to slavery, but if you read pro-life sites you get used to that sort of thing). Unlike the author, David Morrison, I have no problem understanding why the value hospitals give fetuses should depend on if the mother wants to go through with the pregnancy or not. Restaurants often cook food with great care for their customers, but throw out apparently identical food that is unwanted; I wonder if this practice also strikes David as contradictory?
- Feministing’s Hannah is more disturbed than I am, but comes (I think) to the right conclusion.
- Over at A Small Victory, I’m having a debate with a pro-lifer in the comments of this post. (If you go over there, please be ultra-polite.) I thought that this post, also on A Small Victory, was much more thoughtful and interesting.
July 22nd, 2004 at 9:27 am
Wanting to have a career is not a trivial concern
Ah, but to the people flipping about about her abortion, it is. Careers for women are a second prize if you can’t be a full-time housewife mommy, or grudgingly tolerable if through no fault of your own you have no other means of support (i.e. your husband died or ran off on you).
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 9:32 am
Whether you consider it “over the top” or not, I will stand by the anology, and point out that your response makes it appear that the point was missed.
An unborn child isn’t food, that’s why the restaurant analogy fails. The unborn child is an unborn child, and we have (and are gaining more every day) data that details of the humanity of that child. My question in my post was how much longer can we continue to ignore the flood of information (data, images, sounds, etc) that indicate that this is so?
In 1849, a Lousiana plantation owner could beat a slave to death and not be charged with murder. Why? Because the plantation owner’s society failed to recognize what other Americans living at the same time had recognized, the slave’s humanity.
As the data steadily increases, as wanted unborn children are steadily recognized more as a patients and people worth protecting, it will become harder and harder to justify the killing of the unwanted ones.
Might I ask if you condemn abortion for any reason? If Amy’s fear of Costo, Staten Island and large jars of mayo are enough, how about the practice in South Asian immigrant communities of killing unborn girls because they are girls?
This comment was written by David Morrison.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 9:51 am
What is this, “…flood of information (data, images, sounds, etc)..” that is proving the case for the “humanity” of 8 week embryos? Can you provide any links that can show this data proving the personhood of 8 wk “unborn children”?
This comment was written by Jake Squid.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 9:55 am
If Amy’s fear of Costo, Staten Island and large jars of mayo are enough…?
David, you’re far too intelligent to maintain this pretense that you’re unable to read and understand symbolic illustrations of a life path taken (or avoided). Those items you list represent the difference between Richard’s ability to live a life she wants, raising her children in the way she wants, and pursuing a career that means a lot to her. That you consider such concerns too trivial to take seriously or talk about with even a modicum of respect adds nothing to your credibility, when you’re talking to a feminist.
Also, Richards also expressed medical concerns, which you’ve chosen to ignore; do those concerns seem trivial to you, too?
An unborn child isn’t food, that’s why the restaurant analogy fails. The unborn child is an unborn child, and we have (and are gaining more every day) data that details of the humanity of that child. My question in my post was how much longer can we continue to ignore the flood of information (data, images, sounds, etc) that indicate that this is so?
After the 20th-24th week (when abortions are extremely rare), you’d have an argument. But no images or sounds before the 20th week make up for the lack of a functional cerebral cortext. And science is clear on this: no human without a functional cerebral cortext, connected to their brain, is capable of experiencing thought or emotion.
No scientific developments have changed this basic fact, David. We can now make out facial features earlier and earlier, but so what? The right to life isn’t dependant on having human-like facial features (if it were, a severe burn victim might not have a right to life). The right to life isn’t based on being able to mindlessly squirm away from a stimuli (if it were, fishing with worms would be outlawed, and Stephen Hawking would have no right to life).
Why is it that we can watch Star Trek and accept an intelligent, glowing ball of light as a person? It has no face; it does not sqirm or kick; it meets none of the definitions of “life” that pro-lifers have suggested to me. At the same time, we accept that Mudd’s robots - who have human-looking faces, and who move around, but who do not think or feel emotion - are not people.
What’s the distinction? Mudd’s robots don’t think and feel, so aren’t people. But the glowy ball is a person, because it is sentient, it thinks, and it feels emotions. That - not possessing a nose-like lump in an ultrasound scan - is what personhood is about.
Might I ask if you condemn abortion for any reason? If Amy’s fear of Costo, Staten Island and large jars of mayo are enough, how about the practice in South Asian immigrant communities of killing unborn girls because they are girls?
I think such a practice is wrong, so in that sense I condemn it. But I don’t beleive it should be outlawed; it’s better to try and change society so that sex-selective abortion won’t be wanted anymore.
This comment was written by Ampersand.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 9:55 am
how about the practice in South Asian immigrant communities of killing unborn girls because they are girls?
The issue there is not abortion, but the enormous sexism that leads to couples not even wanting girls to exist. It is no different than if those couples took a magic pill that only allowed Y-carrying sperm to fertilize the ovum.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 10:03 am
Oh, and finally, you seem to have missed the point of the food comparison. My point was that there’s no contradiction in treating two 16-week-fetuses differently if you can accept that the hospital is serving the wishes and needs of the mother, not of the fetus.
This comment was written by Ampersand.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 10:12 am
It is true that multiple gestations are risky for mother and offspring. Twins are not so much of a problem, but even they are subject to some prematurity and increased associated complications. The overwhelming number of twin pregnancies are delivered by caesarian section in the US. I daresay all triplets and higher are delivered by C-S. Some of the immediate complications of prematurity include neonatal brain hemorrhages (strokes), lung immaturity or damage, and death of the intestinal tract. In many ways, having triplets or higher is like having a bunch of special-needs children who may or may not grow out of their problems. The expense is considerable, and if you don’t have health insurance (apparently this woman is a free-lance writer, so I assume she is paying for her pregnancy out of pocket and is uninsured), is a cause for bankruptcy or for spend-down of all assets in order to qualify (if possible) for medicaid. Moving to Staten Island is not the point - moving to the underpass is, unless boyfriend is very well insured and married her tout suite.
This comment was written by NancyP.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 10:12 am
Jake, just one part of the new data that I was able to find in about two minutes on Google. From the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3846525.stm
The new images also show foetuses apparently yawning and rubbing its eyes. The scans, pioneered by Professor Stuart Campbell at London’s Create Health Clinic, are much more detailed than conventional ultrasound. Professor Campbell has previously released images of unborn babies appearing to smile.
12 weeks, btw, not 20 or 24. And this is only the latest. There will steadily be more and more, more medical treatments to treat maladies in the unborn, more ways of understanding our development in those earliest ages.
This comment was written by David Morrison.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 10:20 am
David, how many special needs children have you adopted, and how much time have you devoted to their care? How many US minority healthy non-infants, how many children of any age with serious medical problems or moderate retardation or autism or schizophrenia? Sorry, I don’t count healthy white babies from the US, or healthy Chinese or Korean “white enough” babies as showing a commitment to adopting all that need it.
How many children are you the stay-at-home dad for? How many jobs have you given up for your children? Are you on the Daddy Track at work, and if so, do you contribute at least 50% of teh time and unpaid work involved in childraising?
All hat and no cattle, I bet.
This comment was written by NancyP.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 10:33 am
David, adults waking up rub their eyes to clear their eyes of dry matter, to moisten their eyes, and to help their eyes focus. None of these are things that a fetus would have any need to do - it’s not possible to be dry in the womb, nor is there any way to focus their eyes. In fact, a 12 week old fetus isn’t even able to open her eyelids.
Your evidence is crude anthromorphism. Fetuses are constantly moving - of course some random gestures are going to resemble deliberate movement. Just as animals will often (with the right editing, as in those old Disney animal specials) seem to display human emotions and responses. But that’s not meaningful, and it’s not science.
Do you have any scientific explanation as to how it is possible for a fetus to experience thought before it has a functioning, connected cerebral cortext?
This comment was written by Ampersand.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 10:36 am
Barry, what I am suggesting is that hospitals (and the rest of us) are recognizing that mothers are not their only patient in a pregnancy. This is happening now, as steadily more medical procedures treat the unborn child as an unborn child and not like merely an extension of her mother.
And my only point is that all of this will continue to undermine abortion as a method of regulating parenthood.
Reasonable people are going to find it more difficult to accept killing kids for lifestyle, career, gender selection or economic reasons after they have had their own kids, cousins, nephews, nieces, worked on in hospitals at the same age; after they have been invited to see their neighbor’s ultrasounds of kids the same ages.
This comment was written by David Morrison.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 10:46 am
mothers are not their only patient in a pregnancy
What happens when the two patients have conflicting interests? Do we go back to the old ‘let the baptized die and save the unbaptized’ standard?
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 10:53 am
David, I adore my neice and nephew, and even moreso the baby I live with. I’ve stuck the ultrasound photos to my fridge with magnets. But my position on abortion hasn’t changed a whit.
I think as science tells us more and more about how the mind works, there will be fewer and fewer people who think that a pre-thought, pre-feeling embryo or fetus is the same as a child.
However, in the end, how many people agree with you or with me doesn’t matter. What’s right or wrong isn’t decided by popular decree; even if 99% of Americans agreed with you, David, I’d still say that using force to make pregnant women give birth against their will is wrong. And I assume that your opinion, too, isn’t subject to being altered by what polls say.
This comment was written by Ampersand.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 11:30 am
It seems I was too hours and one post too early to discuss sex selection abortions. I wrote below:
On the other hand, last week China announced that it was banning “sex selection” abortions, as there are now 119 boys for every 100 girls in China. The result will be about 30-40 million more Chinese men than Chinese women. I would never support a similar law here, but I can’t say that I oppose that law in China, even though it’s affecting lots of choices of lots of individuals in lots of trimesters.
Ampersand writes: “I think such a practice is wrong, so in that sense I condemn it. But I don’t beleive it should be outlawed; it’s better to try and change society so that sex-selective abortion won’t be wanted anymore.”
In China (and India) however, this is exactly what they are doing, and the problem is only getting worse. In China, there are now 12.7 million more boys than girls under the age of 9, and that figure is from two years ago when the ratio was “only” 117 to 100. Meanwhile, the national numbers mask local problems (non-Han sections of China have a more “normal” distribution), like in Yongxing Township where there are 141 boys for every 100 girls!”
I approve of freedom of the individual to make decisions about her body, but there are limits, and it would seem that a society could fairly elect to not commit suicide. “Try and change the society” seems like a good way to fight generalized racism and sexism that are harmful, but no one denies the value of a law telling a man he has to employ qualified women and minorities in his private company, even if he would prefer to work in an all-white-male environment. There must come a point, however, where “trying to change the society” is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. China seems to be at that point.
– RB (father of two girls and not complaining one bit!)
This comment was written by Richard Bellamy.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 11:42 am
Problem is, in societies where girls are so undervalued, women are undervalued as well. They simply don’t have the power or autonomy to choose otherwise, or excersize autonomy over their bodies. I would imagine that in many of these societies, the husband/extended family has a lot of say in the decision.
Also, sex-selection often takes place after giving birth. Female newborns are killed and declared stillborn. Female children often fewer resources (including food, medicine, etc.)–these go to the boys. Not exactly the conditions for a long and healthy life. In that sense, changing attitudes will do more to preserve life.
This comment was written by Sheelzebub.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 11:44 am
Richard, you should read Amartya Sen’s work on the “missing women,” an absence that is not just attributable to abortion, but to unequal access to education, and to health care at every stage of life. However, what Sen concludes, as I recall is exactly what Ampersand stated: the “cure” is to elevate the status of women at all levels of society — and he gives examples of parts of India, in particular, where there is no distortion in the ratio of boys to girls. Punitive measures will not by themselves accomplish much.
This comment was written by Barbara.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 11:45 am
It’s also not an either-or choice–permit abortions for sex selection or try to talk people out of them. China’s one-child policy encouraged these abortions, but more importantly, so does the utter lack of any kind of social structure that takes the place of sons’ obligations. In rural China, a son is a kind of old-age insurance, whereas a daughter is seen as a burden. (That may change as girls become a commodity, of course.)
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 11:54 am
But isn’t a big part of changing attitudes changing the laws under which the attitudes operate?
When a woman is arguing with her husband’s mother, who wants her to abort the female fetus so that the male line can continue, a big part of changing the culture is allowing the woman to say, “No, it’s illegal. Do you want me to break the law?”
Why did we oppose anti-Sodomy laws like in Lawrence v. Texas? Because once every 20 years or so someone actually gets arrested under it? No, because it is easier to gain cultural acceptance when your lifestyle is not criminalized. Brown v. Bd. of Education didn’t end racism anywhere, but it gave the civil rights movement a banner to gather around — a recognition that what they knew was morally right was protected under the law.
When there are large inequalities in power, it helps when the law is on the side of those with less power. Part of changing the culture is changing the law. Once the culture has changed (like in America) the law becomes unnecessary.
This comment was written by Richard Bellamy.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 11:58 am
But isn’t a big part of changing attitudes changing the laws under which the attitudes operate?
Yes. I’m not sure changing the particular law banning sex-selection abortions is the right legal change to make, however. Partly because the law will be circumvented–as it is in India–and partly because it will shift from abortion to infanticide.
I don’t believe that banning abortion for sex selection in China will necessarily empower women.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 12:00 pm
Richard, who enforces those laws? Yes, it’s a bit of chicken and egg problem, but if China and India are concerned, for instance, their resources would be better spent ensuring that girls get better access to health care, education and nutrition, and focus on elevating girls who have already been born. I’ll find the cite to the Sen work, obviously, he’s a lot more articulate (and knowledgeable) than I am.
This comment was written by Barbara.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 12:25 pm
As the mother of girls, I too have more than an academic interest here — but I am just trying to stress that abortion is the symptom, it is not the evil unto itself — undervaluing women is the evil. It would be wrong to take our obsession with abortion and try to superimpose a “fix” without cultural context. If you are interested, go to the following link (no html skills at all):
http://www.thp.org/sac/unit4/missing.htm
(some of it didn’t seem to be working well, but you will get the idea if you read even the first few pages).
This comment was written by Barbara.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 12:32 pm
I would never support a similar law here, but I can’t say that I oppose that law in China, even though it’s affecting lots of choices of lots of individuals in lots of trimesters.
May I ask why, Richard? Assuming that you’re focused on the reasoning–the desire to filter out the girls–what would the difference be between such a law in the US and one in China?
If it’s just because there are more of this particular kind of abortions in China, please explain why it makes sense to ban something based on the extent of the problem rather than the problem in and of itself.
This comment was written by Hestia.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 1:24 pm
please explain why it makes sense to ban something based on the extent of the problem rather than the problem in and of itself.
If society was perfectly balanced, I would have no problem with people making whatever individual choices they wanted.
In America, there are lots of all-boy and all-girl schools. People can choose whether they want a co-ed experience (the large majority) or would rather have a single sex education. I have no problem with that. People can do whatever they want, and however they feel they learn best. I could join a group informing parents of the dangers of single-sex education to try to “change society” and root out the last single-sex holdouts, but in the end it would be their choice.
If I lived 50 years ago, and all of the top colleges were Men Only, I would have supported a law that required all schools to become co-ed. There would have been a lot of statistics out by Conservatives showing how both men and women learned better when they didn’t have all the social pressures of co-ed classes, plus there were perfectly fine Women’s Colleges. There would be social pressure to keep things the way things always had been, even though women were barred from the top schools.
Changing the law permitting single-sex schools would be the best way to change the society. “If you can’t do it fairly, then you can’t do it at all.” Today, separate can ACTUALLY mean equal in single-sex education, so the law banning single-sex education is unnecessary and choice-restraining. In 1950, it couldn’t be equal, so was necessary to change society for the better.
Similarly, in a society where some people want boys and some people want girls, then they can all do whatever they want without destroying the fibers of society. Not because “abortion is wrong,” but because “having a 75% male country is wrong,” no matter how it came about. If everyone in town wants to be a teacher, we have to tell some of them, “No, we only need so many teachers, some of you will have to go to law school.” If everyone wants a son, we have to tell some of them, “No, we need girls too.”
On the other hand, if the few remaining girls could actually leverage their bargaining power when there are twice as many guys competing for them . . .
This comment was written by Richard Bellamy.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 1:32 pm
If everyone in town wants to be a teacher, we have to tell some of them, “No, we only need so many teachers, some of you will have to go to law school.”
In America, we allow the market to do that (at least in theory); when we have too many lawyers, lawyers get paid less, and people do other things if they want to make a living. We don’t pass laws saying that only people with last names Q-Z are allowed to go to law school.
If everyone wants a son, we have to tell some of them, “No, we need girls too.”
The question is HOW we tell them that. And we don’t do it by throwing out women’s control over their bodies.
You do realize that telling people “No, we need girls” might lead to requiring abortion for sex-selection. Too many boys born? Let’s make people abort them until our balance of girls evens out.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 1:47 pm
I personally think this is reflective of the decline in personal responsibility in America today. We never believe that we are at fault for anything. I was not so much sickened as saddened and dismayed. It kind of reminds me of the lawsuit against McDonalds. You do something, you are not happy with the results, you refuse to take that responsibility for your action. Sadly, this is all too common now. If Ms. Richards were anything other than a shallow narcissist she would have taken responsibility for her action and given up her babies for adoption. Whatever your views on abortion, Ms. Richards needs serious help.
This comment was written by Josh.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 1:59 pm
It kind of reminds me of the lawsuit against McDonalds
The one where McDonald’s refused to take responsibility for serving undrinkably hot coffee in the drive-through and ignoring customer complains that it was dangerous? Or is that not quite what you meant by “responsibility”?
Whatever your views on abortion, Ms. Richards needs serious help.
Security guards to protect her from wackaloons would be a good kind of help.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 2:12 pm
The question is HOW we tell them that. And we don’t do it by throwing out women’s control over their bodies.
But you assume that “women’s control over their bodies” means abortion rights. It does not.
What if, in a fair poll of Chinese women, you found out that over half of them were aborting girls under family pressure, and that they didn’t feel that they had sufficient control over their body to choose to not abort, despite their wishes to have the baby irrespective of its gender?
In that situation — where it is impossible for the government to know in any given case whether the woman seeking an abortion is doing so under her own free will or under pressure from a pervasive man-dominated society — is it more freeing to women to permit all of the abortions or to forbid all of them?
If the hypothetical “law requiring sex-selection abortion” is not the law of the land but the law of the family, is it not more freeing for women — giving them more control over their bodies — to have the state coerce them to do what they wanted to do anyway, rather than have their family coerce them to do what they don’t? At least until we can “change society,” however that gets done, and the pressure is off the women.
In America, where women have control over their bodies, they do not freely choose to abort 15% of all girls. Assuming that Chinese women are the same, doesn’t the different result imply that it is more likely that it is the permissive abortion laws that are the major obstacles to women controlling their bodies in China?
Alternate Hypothetical: In some parts of Africa, adult women are “free” to get circumcised if they weren’t circumcised as infants. I support laws prohibiting those female circumcisions, even though some women might really really want to get one (for example, in order to get a husband who would never marry a women who was uncircumcised.)
Sometimes, you have to look at an un-screwed-up part of the world (in that particular area of screwed-upness), and ask what women would REALLY want to do if they were not so tightly constrained by their culture. It seems to me that most women I know (from various non-Chinese, non Sierra Leonean cultures throughout the world) choose not to abort girls because they are girls and choose not to get circumcised. It is fair, I think, to conclude that women in small pockets of the world, in insulated cultures, who choose differently are not really expressing their own free will.
So, yes, sometimes the way to give women control over their own bodies is to ban abortion.
This comment was written by Richard Bellamy.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 2:16 pm
Re: Amy Richards. There are plenty of reasons to dislike her as a person. She’s elitist and privileged and refuses to acknowledge that in her writing. She’s condescending, and frankly, I think she ends up turning off more people by her writing than anything else. Even when I essentially agree with her (like here) she makes me dislike her so much that I find it difficult to agree with her. She has an article in the most recent issue of Bitch in we she talks about the “cliche” of “every mother is a working mother” and how she’s “waiting for the ‘work’” because right now it’s just been an easy walk in the park and half way through I just want to throw the magazine out the window and scream, “fuck you, you little fucking moronic overprivileged idiot.” The same thing happened when reading Manifesta.
But, you know what — even moronic overprivileged elistist idiots deserve the same rights as everyone else. So, while I may find Amy Richards to be more than aggravating, I still support her decision 100%.
Re: sex-selective abortion. I’m opposed to it — not as “abortion” but as a sexist misogynistic practice. But do I think a law against it is the right way to go? I don’t know. Hasn’t worked in India, and it’s been illegal in India for almost a decade or more.
The way I see it, it’s often like the case of someone in Western society aborting a disabled fetus. Some people do it because they really do think that disabled people shouldn’t be born, really do hate the thought of having a disabled child (not for the extra work and cost, but because they hate disabled people).
But most people do it because they don’t think (or know) they can handle the extra financial burden and energy that it will take to raise such a child.
Raising a girl in a society that so undervalues girls (and women) is a similar situation. Girls will not stick around to help out the family. They will leave and go to their in-laws. The parents will have to come up with a dowry. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Personally, I’m morally and ethically opposed to aborting a disabled fetus. I figure, if you absolutely cannot handle having a disabled child, you shouldn’t have a child (what if it’s something like CP that can’t be detected in utero? what if your child is in an accident at the age of 2?).
Regardless, I do understand that raising a disabled child does take extra effort and more finances than a non-disabled child. And while I may oppose abortion for this reason on moral and ethical grounds, I can’t oppose it on legal grounds — and I would support the legal right for any parent to make that decision.
The thing is, in this society it is more than an “imposition” on a family to raise a disabled child. It doesn’t have to be — but in order to change that, we need to make some changes as a society (which we do not seem willing to make at this time).
The same can be said for a family who ends up with a baby girl in India or China.
This comment was written by bean.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 2:28 pm
is it more freeing to women to permit all of the abortions or to forbid all of them?
False dilemma. You are plastering over the real issue (forced abortions) by denying women control over their bodies: “You don’t get to control whether you can be pregnant, but nobody else gets to, either.” It’s like preventing marital rape by banning intercourse.
Your example makes a lot of assumptions: that ‘over half’ of women wouldn’t get these abortions if they could (is that the case?), that it is impossible to prevent forced abortions, and that husbands and families who would force a woman to abort a girl will shrug and give up their nefarious anti-girl scheme when abortions are banned.
I doubt it is the permissive abortion laws so much as a pervasive climate where boys are not only preferred, but needed, in rural China to ensure parents’ support in their old age. Americans do not need to worry that if they have no sons, only daughters, they will be destitute. There is no law that limits the number of children they may have.
Your Africa example is interesting, because–as in China–there’s the distinct possibility that adult women are not being forced, but are going along with what they think is proper. At what point do we say that we know better? (You may remember a recent bill in, I think it was Louisiana, which barred genital piercing along with real female genital mutilation.)
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 2:36 pm
Richard, if you’re trying to make the point that, “Not because ‘abortion is wrong,’ but because ‘having a 75% male country is wrong,’” then I agree with everyone else here that the best–indeed, I’d argue the only–way to achieve such an end is to change the structure of society.
We should attempt to solve the problem itself–women are undervalued–and not, as Barbara said, its symptom. Especially since the right to an abortion is all about women being able to control their own bodies.
And I have a problem saying, “Abortion should be legal everywhere except in China and India.” I don’t think the fact that something is used for one purpose here and another there is a good reason to support a ban of it either here or there. In this particular case, I don’t think social context matters.
Your co-ed schools example is relevant. Banning co-ed classes would be just as unfair now as it would be at any other time and in any other place. Are you suggesting that you wouldn’t mind if today’s Congress passed a law that required all classrooms to be same-sex? Without co-ed schools, we wouldn’t ever have gotten to the point where we don’t need them anymore.
But you assume that “women’s control over their bodies” means abortion rights. It does not.
I disagree. It’s not all about abortion rights, but women cannot have full control over their bodies without abortion rights.
is it not more freeing for women–giving them more control over their bodies–to have the state coerce them to do what they wanted to do anyway
Um, no. “Coercion” is never “freedom.” You’re assuming that no woman in China or India would ever choose to have an abortion for any reason, and that’s just incorrect.
Besides, if you ban abortion, what have you achieved? The pressure to produce male children will still be very much there. So what will happen to the girls? Do you honestly believe that all the men will just throw up their hands and say, “Oh, well, guess there’s nothing we can do about it”?
This comment was written by Hestia.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 2:37 pm
I meant to say that your co-ed schools example isn’t relevant.
This comment was written by Hestia.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 2:42 pm
And the FGM issue is a very tricky one; I haven’t quite figured it out yet. On the one hand, yes, it’s horrible and should never, never happen. But on the other hand, breast implants are harmful to both individual women and women in general, and I’m pretty sure no woman would ever choose to have that kind of surgery if it weren’t for the social pressure…
This comment was written by Hestia.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 3:21 pm
Amp: My point was that there’s no contradiction in treating two 16-week-fetuses differently if you can accept that the hospital is serving the wishes and needs of the mother, not of the fetus.
There’s no contradiction in treating food as to be eaten or to be thrown away, depending on the owners. In the end, no matter how you look at it, it’s just food.
But that doesn’t even remotely mirror the situation with abortion. How does it make sense to say, “This thing here is either (1) A baby who deserves the best medical treatment; or (2) a mindless clump of cells that needs to be killed, and the only thing that makes the different is someone else’s intention”? Sooner or later, people are going to see the contradiction in that attitude.
This comment was written by Joe M..Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 3:39 pm
The analogy I was trying to draw with co-ed schools is:
1. Law banning single sex classes is NEEDED when women don’t have equal access to top schools and all top schools are male only.
2. Law banning single sex classes WRONG today when single-sex education is one of many equal option.
Similarly:
1. Law banning abortion is NEEDED when women do not have free control over whether they can get an abortion or not.
2. Law banning abortion is WRONG when women are free to make the choice over whether to use the option.
To me, the abortion issue, FGM, and your breast implants examples are all part of the same sliding scale. You have to, as a society, weigh the risk of permitting with the loss of freedom from forbidding.
You’re assuming that no woman in China or India would ever choose to have an abortion for any reason, and that’s just incorrect.
No, I’m assuming that over half of the abortions in China are coerced and not voluntary on the part of the woman. I base that assumption that in countries where women are freer, they make different choices.
Another example is the “right to die,” where opponents of physician assisted suicide think that family members would pressure the elderly and sick to kill themselves so as not to be a burden. The answer — to me at least — is not obvious.
You have to weigh the harms and the benefits. How many people — on the margins — will have a new option made available to them? (Abortion, FGM, breast implants, suicide). How many people — on the margins — will be forced against their “true” will to have an abortion, etc.?
These are empirical questions, and if the answer is that 90% of the women who have abortions in China do so because of cultural pressure and would have preferred to have a daughter, while 10% of the women have abortions either because THEY want sons (apart from family pressure) or because they otherwise don’t want to have children at the time, then the “pro-woman” balance swings the other way.
–RB. Socailist in Switzerland and Capitalist in Korea.
This comment was written by Richard Bellamy.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 4:11 pm
Choice
This comment was written by Body and Soul.Building on Barbara Ehrenreich’s column on abortion in today’s New York Times, Susan Madrak tells the story of a friend’s difficult decision not to have an abortion, which makes clear not only how hard the decision is, but also that,
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July 22nd, 2004 at 5:25 pm
In regards to the silly argument that we ought to protect the fetus because it is seen “yawning and rubbing its eyes”:
Baloney.
Embryos wiggle and twitch all the time: they’re full of cells that are building muscle and wiring up nervous connections, after all. It is no more a sign of conscious, human mental activity than the fact that anencephalic newborns also move and make reflex responses.
This is just the usual anti-choice appeal to emotion: it has a nose! It must be human! It has a heartbeat! You can’t kill it now! It moved its arm — it was waving hello to its mommy and dreaming about ponies and circuses and Jell-O pudding pops!
It’s a phony argument. I study embryonic fish in the lab. They move and have a heartbeat, and I suspect they have a more functional CNS than a 12 week human fetus…but no one is pounding on my door telling me that I have to preserve every last single one.
This comment was written by PZ Myers.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 5:33 pm
to me, abortion is not about the humanity of a blastocyst, embryo or fetus. i’m pregnant right at this moment–25 weeks tomorrow, second pregnancy, have never aborted, do not deny the fetus i’m carrying (and i do call it a baby) is human.
and yet, i got scared early on and seriously considered terminating. why?
(1) biggest reason: the father was emotionally distant from me. up to that point he’d been talking about having children even more than i had. however, he has also been through a former partner getting an abortion and his first wife having several miscarriages, and couldn’t be excited about something that he couldn’t really believe would work out. on top of all this, in the next couple of months he met someone new online and put more of his emotional energy into her than he did into me. (we had an open-ish relationship, but this was still reprehensible in my eyes.) i originally was ambivalent about terminating and when he said he wanted me to continue, i did… but now i wonder.
(2) i have been struggling with mental health issues for many years now. they’ve gotten pretty bad in the last two years and i was seriously worried, and sometimes still am, that this would adversely affect my parenting skills.
(3) i’ve wound up with a very sketchy job history primarily because of my mental health issues, and do not have the education or training to make a sufficient income for myself and a child. this wouldn’t have been so much an issue had my partner not emotionally bailed on me, but it is certainly an issue now.
other issues i’ve faced:
(1) unlike in my previous pregnancy, this time i actually faced a health complication. shortly after finding out i was pregnant i began suffering joint pain and swelling. it got so bad i had trouble moving and could not sleep, so i went to an urgent care center. they tested me and it turned out i was having an autoimmune reaction.
(2) diabetes runs in my family and my previous baby was nine pounds at birth. i’m being tested in this pregnancy more often than is standard because of that. in fact my first glucose tolerance test came back with a BG of 147 when they don’t want us going over 135. probably this was due to stress from my relationship.
(3) and speaking of stress, i find myself moving out of my boyfriend’s house for a number of reasons, not least among them being that if the stress continues i may find myself at risk for PIH/pre-eclampsia.
these anti-choicers (i won’t grace ‘em with the moniker “pro-life;” i mean, who ISN’T pro-life? a suicidal person?) want to convince everyone around them that pregnancy is a walk in the park, that nothing bad ever happens to the mom, the baby, or the mom’s relationship with the dad/sperm donor. um. i’m here telling you that shit *does* happen. remember me saying this was my second pregnancy? i kept my first child for almost three years. his dad wound up becoming a convicted felon, we split up and i couldn’t afford to keep my child anymore. his grandparents have adopted him.
there are times i think i’ll probably send this child to join hir sibling, too. and believe you me, speaking from experience, giving up a child is NOTHING like having an abortion might be. in the latter case, you’ve never seen “the baby” and the worst you suffer is physical pain and *maybe* being haunted afterwards by wondering if you did the right thing. in the former case, you have to watch someone take your born, living, breathing child, whom you have at least briefly seen and with whom you’ve at least briefly interacted, away from you. and it’s forever. it’s not some “flippant” decision you can just reverse three years down the road.
“but at least the child lives.” sure, that’s a valid point, i guess. one more on a planet teeming with six billion people, and nobody really cares how the mom feels anyway. we’re just brainless walking uteri, right?
This comment was written by dana.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 6:27 pm
Joe M:
But that doesn’t even remotely mirror the situation with abortion. How does it make sense to say, “This thing here is either (1) A baby who deserves the best medical treatment; or (2) a mindless clump of cells that needs to be killed, and the only thing that makes the different is someone else’s intention”? Sooner or later, people are going to see the contradiction in that attitude.
Who has expressed that “attitude?” Quote them. I think you are grossly misrepresenting the nature of the differences attributed to fetuses on the basis of the intentions their parents.
This comment was written by Don P.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 7:44 pm
No, I’m assuming that over half of the abortions in China are coerced and not voluntary on the part of the woman. I base that assumption that in countries where women are freer, they make different choices.
But that is not the only difference in those countries. China is not “the US but half of abortions are coerced”–which you have to admit is a rather big assumption. In rural China, at least, there is a culture where boys are strongly preferred, not just by everyone-but-pregnant-women but by everyone. It’s not a good idea to assume that if a woman aborts a female fetus, it’s because she values daughters but nobody else does. It’s also a culture where the one-child policy has been enormously strict until recently, and where sons are an investment in one’s financial future.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 8:06 pm
It was asked: “please explain why it makes sense to ban something based on the extent of the problem rather than the problem in and of itself.”
We do that all the time. Anti-nuisance laws - noise regulations, traffic and parking restrictions, littering fines, stuff like that - are passed not because the thing itself is so bad to need a law against it, but because the extent of the thing becomes intolerable. One car driving down your secluded suburban street at night is tolerable. A whole stream of them who’ve discovered it’s a shortcut around a traffic jam on the arteries is what’s intolerable. Then and only then are legal sanctions applied.
This is not to argue that the same policy ought to be adopted to deal with undesired reasons for abortion. Even in the case of nuisances like the above list, legal proceedings are not always the best policy. But it does show that the principle exists in law.
David Morrison wrote, “An unborn child isn’t food, that’s why the restaurant analogy fails.” He has missed the point. Throwing out unwanted food may not be as morally momentous as throwing out an unwanted child [assuming it is a child, a point on which Morrison's "evidence" is entirely specious], but it is not an act without moral moment. The gratuitous discarding of edible food is considered disturbing in our society. Matching grocers and restaurants with charitable groups that can give their unwanted food to the hungry is a major activity.
This comment was written by Simon.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 8:10 pm
Reading the pro-life male comments on this and (where these comments were much more extreme) at Kevin Drum’s blog, I am reminded of a short story by T. Coraghessan Boyle that was published in The New Yorker some years ago. I can’t recall the title, but the story was a fictionalization of one of the teenage mother-throws-baby-in-trash incidents, but he had upscaled it, made his teenage mother China Berkowitz the stereotypical Jewish Princess. Boyle is a conservative satirist, of course. He knows how to push all the buttons.
The pro-life guys, for all their supposedly intelligent ethical reasoning, seem to have a script in mind:
Fate allows me to date Sarah Jessica Parker, but when she becomes pregnant by me, she aborts my fetus!
meaning, in subconscious psychological short-circuit, that she kills me.
Fans of Amp’s cartoons will also presumably know of the by all reports insane Dave Sim (of Cerebus fame). He imagines women as monsters who cannibalize men, as Devouring Female Voids out to extinguish the tiny, helpless male Light (subconscious image of embryo in big, dark womb). He’s also overtly anti-abortion.
The exaggeration of the degree of privilege of Amy Richards (a free-lance writer and a college lecturer is not rich on the scale of Sex and the City fantasies) is part of this psychological script: the woman must be more powerful than the man.
This comment was written by sara.Report this comment to the moderators
July 22nd, 2004 at 9:01 pm
The fact that a woman has internalized her culture’s misogyny does not mean her “voluntary” decisions were not coerced. I agree with everyone who promoted “changing the culture,” but that’s a long-term solution. Sometimes short-term fixes are useful and necessary as well, and legal changes have the advantage of both providing a short-term fix and helping to change cultural norms.
In the meantime, relying on “cultural change” won’t do any good when you’ve got 40 million Chinese men in a state of perpetual adolescence due to their inability to find a wife who wasn’t aborted 25 years ago. What will happen to a society when 10-15% of its young men want to get married but can’t? Who knows. But it can’t be good.
This article says the bad news has already started, and if I’m a woman in a Conservative rural society where pre-marital sex is a no-no and job options are non-existent, I’m not sure I wouldn’t be willing to give up my right to “choose” an abortion to decrease my chances of being kidnapped and raped by a sex-starved bachelor.
“Chinese commentators fear the effect on public order, painting a picture of bands of testosterone-crazed youths roaming the countryside, raising hell. . .
“So far, the main effect of the shortage of women seems to be nasty behaviour towards them. Official figures suggest that 64,000 women have been rescued from forced marriages since 1990. Xie Lihua, editor of Rural Women Knowing All, an immensely successful magazine (fancy a readership of 50m-60m?), describes how she helped to rescue two readers from Sichuan province who had been kidnapped and married off to men in Guangdong. But such errands of mercy are sometimes unwelcome. “Often when the police arrive, the villagers surround them and threaten to beat them up,” she says. “They don’t object if somebody has paid for a wife. They don’t want to see the village die out.”
This comment was written by Richard Bellamy.Report this comment to the moderators
July 23rd, 2004 at 1:32 am
Sex-selective abortion was being overly used and abused in India for years. Because of that, they made changes to the laws. Now, it is no longer possible to find out the sex of your baby before birth. Sex-selective abortions are illegal, although abortions for other reasons are still legal.
Has this changed things in India? Not really. Sure, the number of abortions based on sex have gone down. But the number of female infanticides and the number of abandoned baby girls have increased. Is this really better?
I don’t think anyone should be coerced into an abortion for any reason. But, neither do I believe that it is ever right to coerce — no, force — a woman to carry a pregnancy to term against her will. And outlawing abortion — regardless of the intentions — is doing exactly that. Even if we were to believe Richard’s numbers that “half” of Chinese women who abort are coerced to do so (which is extremely unlikely — they may be doing so because of societal pressure to have a boy and not a girl, but that doesn’t mean that the abortion is being coerced), there are still the remaining half who would then be forced to carry the pregnancy to term against their will.
This comment was written by bean.Report this comment to the moderators
July 23rd, 2004 at 4:38 am
That’s great, sara. I was fixing to make a similiar point, but your way was funnier. Before I got into blogging and reading blogs, I used to think that the stereotypes of pro-lifers, the men as women-fearing and the women as sister-punishing, were probably unfair. But while it’s unfair to say that all pro-lifers are like that, or even most, a disturbing number are.
This comment was written by Amanda.And I am continually amazed at how the pro-life movement constantly has way more men than women and yet this never seems to give them pause and ask themselves–if we really know so much about what’s going on inside a woman, how is it women themselves usually disagree and so strongly?
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July 23rd, 2004 at 6:59 am
pro-life movement constantly has way more men than women and yet this never seems to give them pause and ask themselves
What’s your evidence for this? Remember that a majority of women are pro-life, and that most polls show that the percentage of pro-life women is about equal (or greater) to the percentage of pro-life men.
This comment was written by Joe M..Report this comment to the moderators
July 23rd, 2004 at 7:08 am
Who has expressed that “attitude?” Quote them. I think you are grossly misrepresenting the nature of the differences attributed to fetuses on the basis of the intentions their parents.
Who? I’m not talking about one person’s literal words, as most readers of the English language could see. I’m talking about general attitudes. On one floor of a hospital, everyone calls it a baby, and they treat her as a patient deserving the best in pre-natal care, surgery (yes, they can do pre-natal surgery for some things), and so forth. On another floor, an identical fetus is euphemized as a clump of cells, or the product of conception, or the like, and its destination is a bloody death.
What’s the difference in those two fetuses? Absolutely nothing. The only difference is in someone else’s attitude.
This comment was written by Joe M..Report this comment to the moderators
July 23rd, 2004 at 8:02 am
Um, if it’s a *bloody* death, does that somehow make it worse than just ordinary, run-of-the-mill death? Just wondering.
See, and I agree with you, Joe: some pregnant people treat their fetus as a person; some don’t, and, yes, that’s a difference in attitude. But Amp’s functional-cerebral-cortex argument is, I think, a relevant one here.
We’re talking about two human lives whose interests are in direct conflict with each other, period. The best interests of one will have to be sacrificed, period.
I think, ultimately, the pro-abortion argument is that, while we are, yes, talking about two human lives, we’re not necessarily talking about two human *beings,* and that’s why pro-abortionists believe the decision to favor the pregnant person’s life over the fetus’ life is the correct one.
Abortion kills a living organism, and that organism is, genetically speaking, human. No one’s arguing that, and if they are they’re ignorant of biology. But that organism, as far as early-term abortions are concerned (and the vast, vast majority of elective abortions are early-term), does not think or feel–while it’s human, there’s nothing that makes it a human *being.* The same can’t be said for the person in whose body that human organism resides.
This comment was written by Morphienne.Report this comment to the moderators
July 23rd, 2004 at 8:51 am
I’m with bean: We should never ban abortion because there will always be some women who would choose it outside of any pressure they may be under, and it’s unacceptable to deny them rights in order to achieve an end which probably wouldn’t happen anyway.
Simon, I think you’re correct about your “extent of the problem” post. I should have said “reasons” instead of “extent.” You get fined for parking in places where you may not park. You don’t get fined for parking in illegal place X because you wanted to go to a bar, but not in illegal place Y because you were visiting your mother. The reasons you were there don’t matter; your being where you weren’t supposed to be (or annoying someone by the level of your noise, or littering in general) is the only important point.
But with Richard’s recommendation, that’s what would happen. He’s in favor of banning abortion in one place and not another not because he thinks abortion in and of itself is wrong, but because he thinks the reasons a particular group of people is choosing abortion are wrong.
Wouldn’t it make more sense, then, to ban abortion based on those reasons rather than all abortion? bean mentioned not revealing the sex of a fetus and banning sex-selective abortion (which would be just as abhorrent in America as anywhere else). These are much better ideas than banning abortion outright, and would be at least as effective, if not more so.
Richard, your post about the “nasty behavior” of some Chinese men only supports my point. How will an abortion ban fix this problem? If they threaten to beat police up, why would they pay any attention to a mandate that forbids abortion–especially since it has had a tremendous role in their lives?
1. Law banning single sex classes is NEEDED when women don’t have equal access to top schools and all top schools are male only.
2. Law banning single sex classes WRONG today when single-sex education is one of many equal option.
OK, I understand. (But we need to be clear that the ban applies to male-only classes; there would be no reason to ban female-only classes in either example.) Perhaps, then, it’s more a matter of degree and the extent to which it deals with the problem at hand.
The problem in the school example is that women aren’t getting access to an education; the laws give them that access. It doesn’t limit anyone’s right to an education. But a total abortion ban does limit the right to an abortion. The problem is not that fetuses are being aborted, but that female fetuses are being aborted. In this case, a ban on sex-selective abortion would be more comparable to a ban on male-only classes.
Also, I believe that the right to retain control of one’s own body is far more important than the right to a male-only education, which makes banning abortion less acceptable in my eyes than banning same-sex classes.
This comment was written by Hestia.Report this comment to the moderators
July 23rd, 2004 at 10:09 am
What’s the difference in those two fetuses?
About seven to eight months of gestation followed by birth. Plus the fact that on the maternity ward, the mother chose not to abort.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
July 23rd, 2004 at 11:09 am
About seven to eight months of gestation followed by birth.
Wrong. That doesn’t explain how the fetuses are different now.
Plus the fact that on the maternity ward, the mother chose not to abort.
Well, that’s the point. Based on the mother’s whims, the doctors have to treat the fetus either as a medical patient or as something to be exterminated.
This comment was written by Joe M..Report this comment to the moderators
July 23rd, 2004 at 11:23 am
Based on the mother’s whims, the doctors have to treat the fetus either as a medical patient or as something to be exterminated.
Yep. I don’t see why you have a problem with this. ‘Treating the fetus as a patient’ is for the benefit of the born baby the fetus will, eventually, become, not because the fetus mobilized Mommy to walk in and ask the doctor for help.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
July 23rd, 2004 at 11:34 am
OK, I understand. (But we need to be clear that the ban applies to male-only classes; there would be no reason to ban female-only classes in either example.)
The issue is the power of those who exclude, not the gender of those affected by the exercise of that power.
When Joe Hogan wanted to attend the Mississippi University for Women Nursing school, the Court forced them to let him in, primarily because there was no other convenient nursing school in Northern Mississippi that accepted men. That has to be the right answer. If Mississippi had a Men’s Nursing School and a co-ed nursing school nearby, and they were all of comparable quality, there would be no problem.
The problem in the school example is that women aren’t getting access to an education; the laws give them that access. It doesn’t limit anyone’s right to an education. But a total abortion ban does limit the right to an abortion.
Similarly, the problem in the China example is tha women aren’t getting the opportunity to give birth to daughters; the laws give them that opportunity. And it doesn’t limit anyone’s right to have a baby. But a ban on same sex education limits the rights of women in Northern Mississippi to atttend a women-only nursing school.
The issue is not whether the right to abort or the right to have babies is the more “important” right, it is that the government cannot police every family interaction, so needs to act on a governmental level based on which right is being more greatly infringed upon. It’s just a simple utilitarian calculus. When some rights will necessarily be infringed, you set policy to minimize the overall infringement.
This comment was written by Richard Bellamy.Report this comment to the moderators
July 23rd, 2004 at 12:13 pm
women aren’t getting the opportunity to give birth to daughters
Your argument rests on the assumption that those women want to give birth to daughters but nobody will let them. Are you sure that’s the case?
Your comparison to FGM is an instructive one–it’s not men who insist on infibulating their daughters. It’s women.
If Mississippi had a Men’s Nursing School and a co-ed nursing school nearby, and they were all of comparable quality, there would be no problem.
Yes, there would be. You aren’t allowed to refuse to serve blacks in your restaurant by pointing out that there are five other restaurants that do serve blacks in a one-mile radius.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
July 23rd, 2004 at 12:23 pm
A college isn’t a public place in the same way a restaurant is.
Legally, Richard is correct - if their had been an equally-good-in-all-ways nursing college open to men in the same neighborhood, then the Court would have allowed the female-only nursing school to keep on operating.
That’s oversimplifying a little, but basically, that’s what the Court’s decision said.
Regarding banning abortion in China, I do find Richard’s case persuasive. But I find Bean’s rebuttal - that, based on the Indian experience, you would just wind up with a higher rate of infanticide - even more persuasive. I’m not convinced that Richard’s solution would be effective in the short or in the long term.
The only real solution is to support programs to improve the status of women - through public education, through grants targeted to let women attend college and start businesses, etc. That won’t work in the short term, but it will have an effect in the long term. An effective Social Security program would help, too.
This comment was written by Ampersand.Report this comment to the moderators
July 23rd, 2004 at 1:52 pm
That’s oversimplifying a little, but basically, that’s what the Court’s decision said.
I’d honestly have to go back and read the decision, but I suspect whether the college is private or publicly-funded (a la VMI) affects the issue.
I believe Richard has a point if the problem is that Chinese women really want to have these girl babies and making such abortions illegal would guarantee them an out–”Sorry, honey, I’d love to abort, but we’d get in trouble.” I’m not sure you could confidently make those assumptions.
If it’s women who are also expressing the preference for boys (and according to Chinese friends, that’s very much true) rather than just their husbands, then you’re not freeing them from oppression or giving them an out. They don’t want that out, and they’ll find ways around it.
It’s worth noting that given the current shortage of girls, increasing the birth ratio now could simply create a market for girl babies. Have your girl, sell her to a family with a boy that wants to guarantee him a wife.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
July 23rd, 2004 at 4:33 pm
Choice
This comment was written by Body and Soul.Building on Barbara Ehrenreich’s column on abortion in today’s New York Times, Susan Madrak tells the story of a friend’s difficult decision not to have an abortion, which makes clear not only how hard the decision is, but also that,
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July 23rd, 2004 at 4:45 pm
Choice
This comment was written by Body and Soul.Building on Barbara Ehrenreich’s column on abortion in today’s New York Times, Susan Madrak tells the story of a friend’s difficult decision not to have an abortion, which makes clear not only how hard the decision is, but also that,
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July 26th, 2004 at 3:40 pm
Selective Reduction
This comment was written by Cheeseorgy.(Article, or letter rather, can’t be found online, but this sums it up.) I want to say that I’m disgusted, that this should never have been allowed to happen. But I don’t see the difference between knowing that you can’t…
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July 28th, 2004 at 6:52 pm
Somebody wrote:
“Mortality rates skyrocket with multiples. For single births in the US, death rates at birth are 2.7 per 1,000. For twins, 37; for triplets, 52; for more, 231.”
—
I’m not sure where this person got their numbers, but I decided to look them up because the numbers seemed ridiculous - 3% mortality rate for twins, 5% mortality rate for triplets?
The CDC (2001) reports 9.9 per 100,000 live births, with a total of 400. That’s a heck of a difference from the numbers quoted above. Each of those is a tragedy, but statistically, that’s about 0.01 percent.
Whatever side of this discussion you stand on, at least try to get the statistics within an order of magnitude or two.
This comment was written by Iblis.Report this comment to the moderators
July 30th, 2004 at 8:47 am
More on the Amy Richards Story
This comment was written by feministe.Several feminists have expressed that they felt uncomfortable with the NYTimes article that chronicled Amy Richards’ decision to have two of three triplets she was carrying (conceived naturally) aborted. Several takes: Alas a Blog, Noli Irritare Leones…
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July 30th, 2004 at 8:51 am
More on the Amy Richards Story
This comment was written by feministe.Several feminists have expressed that they felt uncomfortable with the NYTimes article that chronicled Amy Richards’ decision to have two of three triplets she was carrying (conceived naturally) aborted. Several takes: Alas a Blog, Noli Irritare Leones…
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July 30th, 2004 at 9:01 am
More on the Amy Richards Story
This comment was written by feministe.Several feminists have expressed that they felt uncomfortable with the NYTimes article that chronicled Amy Richards’ decision to have two of three triplets she was carrying (conceived naturally) aborted. Several takes: Alas a Blog, Noli Irritare Leones…
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October 17th, 2004 at 8:11 pm
Not exactly offended
This comment was written by Raising WEG.I stumbled into blogs via infertility, specifically a very funny set of infertility tickers at a little pregnant that showed up on the Triplet Connection back in August. That was right around the same time the Amy Richards selective reduction fracas …
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November 15th, 2004 at 6:36 pm
Choice
This comment was written by Body and Soul.Building on Barbara Ehrenreich’s column on abortion in today’s New York Times, Susan Madrak tells the story of a friend’s difficult decision not to have an abortion, which makes clear not only how hard the decision is, but also that,
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December 3rd, 2004 at 7:09 am
MENGELE WOULD HAVE BEEN PROUD
This comment was written by The SmarterCop.“Killing a disabled infant is not morally equivalent to killing a person.” He goes on: “Very often it is not wrong at all.” - Peter Singer, professor, Princeton University They’ve just greased the slippery slope of eugenics in the Netherlands,…
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December 22nd, 2004 at 2:51 pm
That article made me want to puke. She has to be the worlds most selfish person. It’s not so much the fact that she went though with the SR (which I was asked to consider with my quad pregnancy) its the fact that she was so cold about it. While I was going though it I was an emotional mess, the minute I saw those heart beats on the screen I was attached to them, I KNEW they where MY childern, my first though was definatly not “How can I get rid of a few of them”.
Also the whole theme of every triplet mother is on bed rest and never leaves her house is crap, I know trip moms who where still doing the family food shopping at 34 weeks and who worked full time. This Amy person is not someone to be looked up to, she is someone to be looked down at for being the worlds most selfish person who should have never had childern. I hope the fear of a multiple pregnancy keeps this loser from ever getting pregnant again.
This comment was written by Courtney.Report this comment to the moderators
December 22nd, 2004 at 4:53 pm
You’re right. What a selfish bitch. Proper, unselfless women put the opinions of strangers like you over the well-being of themselves and their families.
This comment was written by Amanda.Report this comment to the moderators
December 22nd, 2004 at 6:46 pm
Hey, I will defend to the death her right to choose, what I will not defend is the uncaring way she acted when she was told what was going on. When asked to consider selective reduction I was a complete mess, it was not something I wanted to even think about let alone beg my doctor to do. Do you have children Amanda? When you even think of having a child you know, right then and there that their needs will always be the ones to come first, no matter what.
This comment was written by Courtney.Report this comment to the moderators
December 22nd, 2004 at 7:30 pm
Courtney, would you prefer that she fake agony in order to make you feel more comfortable? Some people make difficult decisions quickly and don’t fret over them. That’s just how they are.
If you demand that women put on a demonstration of feelings they don’t feel comfortable demonstrating or don’t feel at all, all you will get are lies. I’m sure you can think of a number of times when you faked the proper feminine feeling in a situation when you didn’t feel it.
This comment was written by Amanda.Report this comment to the moderators
December 22nd, 2004 at 7:34 pm
Amanda, I’m confused.
Why do you think the decision was difficult?
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
December 22nd, 2004 at 9:15 pm
for being the worlds most selfish person
Gee, I would think she is very far behind, say, Susan Smith on that count.
I have children. What makes me puke is mommies who find it necessary to shriek about Amy Richardson in order to puff up their own maternal dedication. (I know more than a few moms of multiples who have choicer words than ‘crap’ for your insistence that the whole bed-rest concept is nonsense, for example.)
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
December 22nd, 2004 at 9:54 pm
Hey, I will defend to the death her right to choose, what I will not defend is the uncaring way she acted when she was told what was going on.
If you get to say how she should feel while exercising her right to choose, you’re not really defending it to the death, are you?
This comment was written by zuzu.Report this comment to the moderators
December 22nd, 2004 at 10:24 pm
Zuzu, I don’t believe Courtney is asserting that she gets to say how someone feels.
I think instead she is alluding to a belief many people, including me, hold. To wit; in many circumstances I owe you tolerance and acceptance. (The list of what those circumstances are is forever being wrangled over.) However, in no circumstances do I yield the right to think about you as I please. This applies universally, for everyone.
I will defend to the death many freedoms that we enjoy as Americans. When I say “to the death” I mean by literally taking up arms and fighting at need. Courtney may or may not have meant the usage that literally. But I do. I will defend to the death the freedoms that you and I both have.
But I am under no obligation whatsoever to approve of the use you, or anyone else, choose to make of your freedom. Nor are you.
We can think as we like.
This comment was written by Robert Hayes.Report this comment to the moderators
December 23rd, 2004 at 2:45 am
If you don’t get it, you never will. It’s just that simple. It has nothing to do with feminie emotion (my husband wept in my arms because he did not think he could take part in the decision of which one of our childern would live and which would die), it has nothing to do with puffing up my own maternal dedication (which every mother should feel, and if she dosn’t she should not bother to have children). It has to do with the fact that she saw her childern on the screen and said “What is the best way to destroy them, how can I stop their little beating hearts because I don’t THINK I can handle it.”
Maybe everyone should struggle with infertilty and the desprate want of a child in order to understand what an amazing blessing they are.
This comment was written by Courtney.Report this comment to the moderators
December 23rd, 2004 at 4:31 am
Sounds like you’re puffing up your maternal dedication by emphasizing your outward emotions. Robert, you’re right. It might not have been difficult. Just because someone doesn’t agonize over something doesn’t mean that they didn’t make the right decision, though. A lot of people simply do what needs to be done, no muss no fuss.
Believe me, I have suffered many an insult about how I don’t properly agonize over things, because I sometimes just have a analytical response to my problems, at least it seems that way to other people.
And there is a sexist component to this. I’m happy for you that your husband was upset. But I notice you didn’t call out Amy’s boyfriend’s stoic response and ask that he cry to prove that he deserves to have this.
This comment was written by Amanda.Report this comment to the moderators
December 23rd, 2004 at 5:25 am
Zuzu, I don’t believe Courtney is asserting that she gets to say how someone feels.
She’s demanding wailing and rending of garments as the price of admission to a procedure she herself considered. She’s heaping scorn on this woman she doesn’t know for not being properly remorseful. That’s not asserting that she gets to say how someone feels?
This comment was written by zuzu.Report this comment to the moderators
December 23rd, 2004 at 6:41 am
But I am under no obligation whatsoever to approve of the use you, or anyone else, choose to make of your freedom.
And conversely, Robert, I am under no obligation whatsoever to refrain from speaking to someone who says “I did, or wanted to do, exactly what you did. But *I* am a GOOD person because I was sorry!”
Nor am I under any obligation to give props to somebody who believes she is an Extra Special Mommy and must have wanted her children more than any of us because, you know, if SHE had been Amy Richards she would have been really, really sad about it.
It has to do with the fact that she saw her childern on the screen and said “What is the best way to destroy them, how can I stop their little beating hearts because I don’t THINK I can handle it.”
Please point out where Amy Richards said this. Now you’re so desperate to put yourself above her that you’re just making shit up.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:12 am
Maybe everyone should struggle with infertilty and the desprate want of a child in order to understand what an amazing blessing they are.
Do you know how insulting you’re being here?
I want children. Badly. Passionately. Have done since I was fifteen years old. Cried every time I saw someone with a happy baby because I feared I would never know that happiness myself.
If I found myself pregnant and for whatever reason the doctor recommended an abortion, I would have a horrible decision to make. I don’t know which side I’d come down on, and I pray I never have to find out. But if it doesn’t happen to me, it will happen to others, and implying they don’t love or appreciate children enough if they make a decision you wouldn’t have made is just disgusting.
It’s too bad your struggles haven’t taught you a little compassion.
This comment was written by Nick Kiddle.Report this comment to the moderators
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:47 am
Courtney, why do you feel the need to bring out the old canard “Do you have children, Amanda?”, thus, implying that because she doesn’t, she can’t possibly relate….as if your motherhood puts you up-top on the “real woman” scale. I call bullshit on that.
But hey, I’m game. I am somebody’s mother, and that somebody was born prematurely at 25 weeks gestation. I can tell from your commentary that you have no idea what parents of preemies go through, let alone what the realities of bed rest are….that is, unless you have the same lack of compassion that you’re accusing Amy Richards of having, and that you’d like the rest of us to accuse her of, too.
Bullshit. I spent the first six months of my daughter’s life in the NICU (well, two different NICU’s, actually), and that little slice of time was enough to show me the full gamut of human reaction to medical difficulty and decisions. And I’m sure there were those moral midgets who, in their attempt to feel superior, judged me as not being a proper mother, or having the proper female reaction, too. Lucky for them, they had the good sense to keep that shit to themselves.
Fact is, even if you have walked a mile in her shoes, or think you have, you still don’t know, and you still don’t have any right to pass judgement.
This comment was written by La Lubu.Report this comment to the moderators
December 23rd, 2004 at 10:09 am
I lost 7 babies (5 m/c, 1 stillbirth and 1 premature delivery at 22 weeks) and I was in the hospital for 11 weeks trying despratly to hold my triplets in long enough for them to survive (due to my own issues that I would have and did have with a singleton pregnancy). They where born 10 weeks prematurely and spent 7 weeks in the NICU. I would not give up one single minute, and I can rejoice in the fact that I gave my children life.
I don’t have compassion for anyone who could be this selfish and care more about her apartment and job then the life of her childern. When you have a child it changes everything in your life, even if its just one normal, healthy child.
“and I pray I never have to find out”
I too pray that you never do, and from your post I have a feeling that you will understand what upsets me so much about this article the minute you find out your pregnant. You will know that no matter what your faced with, your child will always come first.
And really, I have never met the lady so I don’t know what she is like, but the way she comes across in the article is cold and selfish, and I am sure I am not the only person on the planet who sees it (actually I know it, since there was an extensive disscussion of the article on the message board I run for women).
Its amazing that you all get fired up over my comments, but don’t want anyone getting fired up over the article itself. You had to know when you posted it that it would draw fire from some people, what amazes me is that so many people seem shocked that there are people out there who don’t want to pin the “Woman of the Year” award on this chick.
This comment was written by Courtney.Report this comment to the moderators
December 23rd, 2004 at 10:15 am
And the other thing is, no one mentioned all the risks that go along with SR. A woman who SR’s has a very high percentage of uterin infection, loss of the whole pregnancy, and a very high number of women who SR have premature babies anyway. I think to be fair and balanced you need to not only give the risks of the multiple pregnancy but to give the risks of the SR procedure also.
This comment was written by Courtney.Report this comment to the moderators
December 23rd, 2004 at 10:43 am
I never said everyone should feel the way that I felt when I read the article, I SAID the way she came across in the article, to me, was cold and selfish even while talking about her living child. That’s the way I FEEL about it. Do I think everyone is going to feel that way? Nope. I am sure there are people out there who would look at her and would call her a horrible person for having an abortion who believe that she should not have even had the option to do it, and then there are people out there who would say what she did was brave. Either way, MY feeling on the subject is that she is not the norm, that most mothers who are trying to get pregnant and found themselves in her position would not have acted the way that she did.
This comment was written by Courtney.Report this comment to the moderators
December 23rd, 2004 at 11:11 am
I don’t have compassion for anyone who could be this selfish and care more about her apartment and job then the life of her childern. When you have a child it changes everything in your life, even if its just one normal, healthy child.
You may not realize just how much her life would change if she had triplets. She lives in the East Village; she has ordered her life in a certain way. She has an apartment and a job that she loves. She has a neighborhood and community she loves. Having triplets would mean giving all of that up, everything. There’s no way to accommodate three babies in an East Village apartment, and given how difficult it is to get any apartment in Manhattan, especially in that neighborhood, it’s highly unlikely that she’d be able to afford to stay where she lives.
Moving to a borough like Brooklyn or Queens, where she might find a lot of the things she loved about her East Village neighborhood — public transport, easy walks to small, locally-owned stores where the shopkeepers know her name, neighbors who hang out on stoops, etc. — might be possible, but it’s likely to be too expensive there, given that she now has three babies to raise and will probably have to live on her boyfriend’s salary. So now she’s looking at Staten Island or the suburbs, which mean isolation from her friends and her community, since she’d have to stay at home (no way could she work when there are three babies at home, plus the childcare costs would make it unfeasible). It means getting a car and shopping at anonymous big-box stores like Costco. It means giving up the idea of raising her kids in the city, with all the cultural options that entails.
It means more than a little accommodation in her existing life, it means a major, seismic shift in her circumstances.
With one baby, though, she could stay in her apartment, in her neighborhood, among the people she knows. She could get one single stroller up and down the subway stairs, but no way could she do a triple. She could get a cab or a car service. She could take the baby shopping in her locally-owned stores where the shopkeepers know her and where her baby will grow up knowing them.
So when you pooh-pooh her reasons for having SR, you’re giving short shrift to the fundamental changes she was facing in her life. Pity she didn’t piss and moan about it to your satisfaction, but them’s the breaks.
And really, I have never met the lady so I don’t know what she is like, but the way she comes across in the article is cold and selfish, and I am sure I am not the only person on the planet who sees it (actually I know it, since there was an extensive disscussion of the article on the message board I run for women).
Ah, yes. “Selfish.” That word always seems to be tossed around for women who don’t want kids or who want to limit the numbers they have, especially if they only want one. By the way, did anyone ever tell you you were being selfish by keeping a quad pregnancy, with all the very well-known risks to children in multiple births and the resources they will consume over their lifetimes?
This comment was written by zuzu.Report this comment to the moderators
December 23rd, 2004 at 12:05 pm
“You had to know when you posted it that it would draw fire from some people, what amazes me is that so many people seem shocked that there are people out there who don’t want to pin the “Woman of the Year” award on this chick.”
THERE’S A CONTEST? Damn. Where are the rules and when do we know who’s won?
This comment was written by Amanda.Report this comment to the moderators
December 23rd, 2004 at 3:28 pm
you will understand what upsets me so much about this article the minute you find out your pregnant
Golly, I’ve been pregnant three times, and I didn’t freak about about Amy Richards being “cold” or start putting words in her mouth to prattle about what a great mommy *I* would have been in *her* situation.
You thought about making the same choices she did. She just didn’t moan about it as much as you would have. Oh well.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
December 23rd, 2004 at 8:45 pm
“Ah, yes. “Selfish.” That word always seems to be tossed around for women who don’t want kids or who want to limit the numbers they have, especially if they only want one. By the way, did anyone ever tell you you were being selfish by keeping a quad pregnancy, with all the very well-known risks to children in multiple births and the resources they will consume over their lifetimes?”
Yes, that’s very true and it’s an angle that few people think about…when very rich people have a lot of children like the entertainer Sting or Supreme Court Justice Scalia or that couple in the midwest having six kids at one time…I read that ONE kid in western society is equal to like 15 in other countries…just due to the resources ONE of our kids will use…
So that’s a very overlooked facet of any woman having children as well…although to be honest what I probably WOULD have done in the case of this woman is abort one fetus and keep the twins…only because twins have a very good chance of a healthy birth and raising two kids so close together is probably easier then apart, if she wants to have another one ever and most of us do…also the childrens’ father seemed to want to at least discuss keeping more then one fetus, at least the twins it appeared. It’s not that I think fathers SHOULD make those decisions as it’s mothers who go through the whole thing really; BUT if you are going to let him know and include him you might as well go the whole nine yards…I mean if I was going to be as dismissive of his opinions as she was, I probably would have spared him the knowledge that there were triplets to begin with and just informed him we were having a baby AFTER I made a decision about how many fetuses to keep…
She’s probably caused no end of ill will between herself and the childrens’ father now and it’s just a question of time before the breakup, the inevitable custody fight where her ‘coldness’ will be used against her and then the book about the whole sordid episode…
Sigh…
I guess we have to look at it almost from an ethnics point of view which might be ‘first do no harm’…or as little harm as necessary to NOT risk your own health and safety.
So for me personally I would have chosen the twins, as doing the lesser amount of harm with my choice, and aborted just the one fetus…
But that’s just me…
NYMOM
This comment was written by NYMOM.Report this comment to the moderators
December 24th, 2004 at 7:38 am
BUT if you are going to let him know and include him you might as well go the whole nine yards..
What is ‘the whole nine yards’? Treating him as though he, too, is the one who will be on bedrest and at physical risk? Oh, right, that would forestall the “inevitable” breakup.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
December 24th, 2004 at 9:04 am
Last essay I read by her, she’s still living with the father and he does much of the hands-on day to day work.
This comment was written by Amanda.Report this comment to the moderators
January 9th, 2006 at 8:25 pm
[...] Why abortion? Why is this the central issue for some many wingnuts? After giving it some thought, I realized that if you want to know wherefore a favored right wing issue, then look to the stereotypical villian and you’ll see what social anxieties they’re playing to in order to distract people from the Republican agenda to tear apart the American dream and replace it with their dream of a nation of poor people under the thumb of the very wealthy. So who’s the villian they are rallying people around to hate? Well, I’d say it’s Amy Richards. Richards is a woman who wrote an article for the NY Times about having a very common procedure done when she found she was pregnant with triplets called a selective reduction, where two fetuses are removed so the pregnant woman only has one child. Richards wrote an article explaining that having three babies at once was way beyond her capacities. For her unwillingness to fuck her life up in order to satisfy the social requirement that all women make a big pious show out of how little our own happiness matters to us when it comes to turning ourselves into baby machines, Richards was castigated endlessly on the right. Actually, Amy Richards and women like me and the fictional characters on “Sex and the City”–feminist straight women, who while not opposed to the idea of marriage and children, aren’t not really enthusiastic about defining ourselves solely as mothers and wives. Take resentment at women’s gains and mix it with an equal part resentment at the stereotypical latte liberal and you have the new American villian–uppity single bitches who need to be taken down a notch or ten. [...]
This comment was written by Unlike those latte liberals, we keep our bitches under the yoke at Pandagon.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 10:42 am
I’m one of those pro-choice men that was thoroughly disgusted by this article. I understand there are medical risks in carrying 3 children, but that was not the focus of the article. Richards’ chief reason for aborting two children was convenience. She did not want to give up her comfy lifestyle.
If she was unprepared to accept the risk of getting pregnant with triplets, she should not have gone off the pill. By choosing to stop birth control, she chose to forgo her life of convenience and accept the risk of bearing children.
Mistakes happen. People get drunk and lose judgement, condoms break, pills fail, but this was a conscious decision, and I feel little sympathy for her plight.
As a pro-choice person, I believe she had a right to have an abortion. But I also firmly believe that with every right there is a responsibility to use good judgement. I do not believe Richards used good judgement in this case.
This comment was written by hotshot.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 11:34 am
Right, because every woman prepared to bring up one child should be prepared to bring up three at once.
This comment was written by piny.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
So I guess that if she got off the pill and had a physically dangerous pregancy, she should just accept it, hotshot? It’s not just convenience, BTW. Take the fatigue and financial strain one child brings and multiply it by three. Who are you–who is anyone–to judge someone for not wanting that?
You’ll just have to forgive me for not seeing the crime in someone wanting to reduce a multiple pregnancy. I don’t think it’s so bad for Richards to want to keep her lifestyle–and frankly, I’m sure her child will appreciate it as well. You may think it showed poor judgement–I think it demonstrated very good judgement.
This comment was written by Sheelzebub.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
That’s what passes for pro-choice? That just makes me sad.
This comment was written by Jake Squid.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Actually, I think the increase with each extra child is exponential. So you’re supposed to cube the fatigue and financial strain, not just multiply by three.
This comment was written by piny.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
I wonder what hotshot thinks of fertility clinics/treatments. Often, when the treatment is successful a woman will have 3 or 5 or 8 or more fetuses successfully residing in her womb. The clinic then removes 1 or 3 or 7 or more of them. Is this really horribly irresponsible on the part of the woman? Sheesh.
This comment was written by Jake Squid.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
eh, choice is good; as long as a woman isn’t making one.
blech.
This comment was written by Q Grrl.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
If she wasn’t on the Pill, she’s a feckless hobag, full stop.
The whole Amy Richards kerfluffle amazed me. I mean, women who have children and don’t want more children abort all the time. The pro-choice quislings who castigated Richards don’t seem to be lining up to stomp on their feet. Nor do these married moms figure prominently among anti-choice chimerae. The preferred hypothetical aborter is a nineteen-year-old crank addict stripping her way through NYU who gets pregnant like some kind of slutty hydra, growing three new fetuses for every one terminated.
A woman who doesn’t think she can swing bedrest is simply making the best choice. It’s only sensible not to want to give birth to baby number three or four or five. It’s only sensible not to want to sustain an unwanted and unplanned pregnancy that might compromise your health or your ability to care for your other children. It’s only sensible not to go to the trouble and expense of having a child you don’t want.
The same reasoning applied to Amy Richards, and yet she got stuck into the shock! horror! category of the monstrous woman who murders her young.
What the fuck?
This comment was written by piny.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
eh, choice is good; as long as a woman isn’t making one.
This comment was written by Nick Kiddle.If I may blow my own trumpet slightly:
Choice is good as long as I agree with the choice you make.
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January 10th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
Wow, way to tear your own flesh, guys.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
Amy Richards was virtually stoned because she tapped into a wellspring of unexamined sexism. We’re fucking well going to complain.
This comment was written by piny.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
The whole Amy Richards kerfluffle amazed me.
I think it had a whole lot to do with anti-urbanism, especially because the high dudgeon really came out over her snarky comment about giant jars of mayonnaise.
And really, not just anti-urbanism, but anti-single-urban-women-who-haven’t-settled-down-in-the-burbs.
This comment was written by zuzu.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
Ugh. I grew up in the suburbs, and it was the most isolated, anti-community existence imaginable. You never leave your house unless you’re in your car, and going to a restaurant involves getting on the expressway. Horrible for kids, too–the library was forty minutes away by bus.
I don’t care if it means heading into retirement with the same amount of equity my great-grandparents had when they got here from Ireland. My kids will be city kids.
This comment was written by piny.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
Does attacking/purging pro-choice people who thought Ms. Richards’ motives were questionable (a) improve or (b) degrade the political position of the pro-choice movement?
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 4:05 pm
Questioned her motives? Yeah, that’s a perfectly honest summary of the treatment she received. “Crying with Rage at Amy Richards,” anyone?
Does attacking/purging women like Amy Richards (a) improve or (b) degrade the political position of the pro-choice movement?
This reminds me of all the pseudo-allies who see me as some sort of model tranny who will provide a supportive audience for their vituperation towards all those nasty, undeserving, homeless, nonpassable, drug-addicted, diseased, prostituted transwomen out there. Amy Richards is us. We are Amy Richards. Allowing her to be turned into some sort of scapegoat for choices that are no different from our choices is both immoral and short-sighted.
This comment was written by piny.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 4:06 pm
I dunno Robert. Does attacking Ms. Richards improve or degrade anything?
We all know you think feminism is well on the way to hell, handbasket or not. Your question doesn’t really have any meat on it.
This comment was written by Q Grrl.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 4:13 pm
Piny, I’m not referring to the attacks on Ms. Richards. I didn’t follow the case and am not particularly familiar with them, although I’m sure there were some that were over the top.
I’m referring to the treatment meted out to people like hotshot - pro-choice individuals who explicitly say that Ms. Richards has a right to her abortion, but who question her judgment. People who vote with you, in other words, but who don’t agree with you about everything.
Perhaps the question of how political movements should treat imperfectly-aligned allies holds no interest for you, Q Grrl. That’s your prerogative, and hey, your movement for that matter. While you have one, anyway.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
Most of the ones that I saw–and I mean from pro-choice individuals–were indeed “over the top.” So was this:
Hotshot questioned her judgment based on a pretty bizarre and rather anti-woman reading of Richards’ level of responsibility–believing, apparently, that a woman prepared for one pregnancy had better be prepared for the extremely unlikely event of several at once. I see no reason not to treat someone like an adult, and subject their assumptions to the same rigor as any others on this blog. I see no reason not to speak candidly about women’s reproductive issues as they actually are. If hotshot would change a voting tendency based on this comments thread, well, hotshot’s support is too much of a hothouse orchid to bother with. I have more faith in hotshot than you seem to, though.
This comment was written by piny.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
You know how people keep calling you disingenuous? Well, it’s disingenuous to talk like this and then pretend that the reason Qgrrl doesn’t want to have this conversation is that it’s on this subject, rather than with you, Robert.
This comment was written by piny.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
The day every single medical decision/treatment out there is up for scrutiny and criticism by people who don’t have to live with the consequences is the day I’ll relax on so-called pro-choicers who get their tighty-whities in a twist because I’m not torn apart by making a choice they didn’t like, or because my reasons weren’t ‘good enough’.
Scratch that. No medical decision is anyone’s business except the person who must deal with the physical consequences.
A woman’s reproductive choices are no one’s business, and I’m sick to death of being expected to give ‘good enough’ reasons for approval. If choice were safe, our reasons wouldn’t be up for judgement–because it would be a non-issue.
This comment was written by Sheelzebub.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
I am disgusted over the way this woman is being treated in the press. Women selectively “cull” embryos after IV procedures all the time. Not only is that healthy for the mother, but it also ensures that the remaining one or two embryos that are allowed to fully develop have the best chance at having a healthy life.
I have three children, and though I would like more my health cannot tolerate another pregnancy. I discussed it with my husband, and I chose to have a tubal ligation rather than remain on birth control indefinately. This way I am assured of no viable pregnancies, though I do have an increased risk for an ectopic.
It’s all about choice, and our right to exercise those choices. People are going to judge those around them. It’s shameful and wrong, but it is human nature. I don’t listen to or accept anyone else’s judgement of me or my life. I am the one that has to live with the consequences of those choices, not all those that would stand around and judge me.
Ms. Richards should hold her head high, and tell those that judge her to go have their own set of triplets and then get back to her. That’s what I’d do, but I’m a bit of a bitch that way.
This comment was written by Mendy.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
Questioned her motives? Yeah, that’s a perfectly honest summary of the treatment she received. “Crying with Rage at Amy Richards,” anyone?
To be fair to Hugo, piny, he wasn’t claiming to be both pro-choice and upset at Richards’ motives. And he seems to have altered his position slightly after the shitstorm that came down on him.
A better question, though, Robert, is whether people like hotshot who claim to be pro-choice and question the motives of women who get abortions are helpful to the movement or are undermining it.
This comment was written by zuzu.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 5:06 pm
A better question…is whether people like hotshot who claim to be pro-choice and question the motives of women who get abortions are helpful to the movement or are undermining it.
That is a good question.
I would argue that movements which are controversial within the population at large should have vigorous internal debate to find the areas of moral solidity, to shake out contradictions, and to thrash out conflicts and inconsistencies so as to present a strong front to the outside world. For example, as someone who is in the pro-war camp, I find that my most useful allies are the people who maintain a critical stance, who find errors in doctrines, who can point out mistakes, and so forth. The folks who are more like my uncle - rah rah Bush - are helpful in the sense of providing electoral muscle, but unhelpful in the sense of strengthening our intellectual position.
Of course, I believe that because the underlying reasons for the war are sound, our underlying morality is correct, and an argumentative storm that sweeps away every falsity, contradiction and untruth in our position will leave us holding something good and true and right. If I didn’t think that was true, but nonetheless held to the position I hold, then I would want a lot more supporters like my uncle and a lot fewer people asking inconvenient questions and engaging in critical thought.
So whether folks like hotshot et al are “helpful” or “undermining” would rather seem to depend on what you find helpful. Vigorous dissent or discussion within a framework of accepting certain principles strikes me as helpful. In fairness, abortion on demand is a position which I believe founded on false grounds. It is thus very natural for me to frame everyone’s position in my own terms, and to assume that anybody who dislikes dissent is secretly just trying to avoid exposing the fallacies that they know are there. Of course, that’s not necessarily the case; it’s certainly possible to wish to have a unified voice for other reasons than fear of revelation of untruth or wrongness.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
…I’m sorry, didn’t you describe this process a few comments ago, as “tear[ing] your own flesh?”
This comment was written by piny.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Really, who cares if hotshot doesn’t approve of Richards’ choice? “It should be legal but I disapprove”–hey, knock yourself out. I doubt Richards knows or cares.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
There’s debate, and there’s not really getting it. I mean, suppose someone claimed to be pro-life but said that if a woman can’t cope with a pregnancy we shouldn’t make her feel bad about abortion, would you think that person was an “imperfectly aligned ally” of the pro-life side?
This comment was written by Nick Kiddle.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
Vigorous internal debate and “you’re what passes for pro-choice? that’s sad” aren’t the same.
Vatican II = vigorous internal debate.
Stalin shoots all his officers = purge.
One is healthy, one isn’t. Admittedly, it’s a judgment call.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
I mean, suppose someone claimed to be pro-life but said that if a woman can’t cope with a pregnancy we shouldn’t make her feel bad about abortion, would you think that person was an “imperfectly aligned ally” of the pro-life side?
How does she vote? If she votes pro-life, then yeah, she’s an imperfectly aligned ally. And the question “should we make people feel bad for their choices” is a good tactical question to be raised on our side - should we guilt people into going along with our agenda? Is it effective? Etc.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 5:58 pm
That’s not what Jake said. He said, “That’s what passes for pro-choice? That just makes me sad.” In other words, he attacked the argument, not the person. He also didn’t compare anyone to Stalin.
As far as I’m concerned, if it fits within Amp’s guidelines for civility, it definitely isn’t on the level of a purge, real or virtual. But I guess not being on our side makes that kind of hyperbole perfectly within bounds.
This comment was written by piny.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 10:06 pm
Vigorous internal debate and “you’re what passes for pro-choice? that’s sad” aren’t the same…
Why should anybody expect Robert to argue honestly? He has a long history of this sort of dishonest paraphrasing disguised as quote. This is why Robert gets called a troll and why any attempt at discussion or debate with him is usually a waste of time.
But for those who aren’t Robert and don’t automatically view criticism of a self-proclaimed ally whose writing reveals otherwise as a rigid doctrinal purge…
Questioning the motives of a woman seeking an abortion by attacking her is not a pro-choice position in my view.
This:
If she was unprepared to accept the risk of getting pregnant with triplets, she should not have gone off the pill. By choosing to stop birth control, she chose to forgo her life of convenience and accept the risk of bearing children.
is not the statement of a person who is pro-choice. In fact, this is one of the standard anti-choice statements. In retrospect, I should have taken hotshot to task for pretending to be pro-choice rather than be saddened that this is understood to be a pro-choice view.
hotshot did not, in fact, provide any fodder for debate within the pro-choice movement. Rather, hotshot attacked the pro-choice movement while in disguise. And I fell for it.
This comment was written by Jake Squid.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
Robert,
hotshot was an officer of the pro-choice movement?
Jake Squid is the dictator of the pro-choice movement?
Jake’s comment was indistinguishable from a bullet to the head?
Who knew?
Maybe you should inform the police?
Honestly, Robert, you’ve made this argument many times here. Has it ever led to a meaningful or interesting discussion? Why do you think it hasn’t?
This comment was written by Charles.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 10:23 pm
Robert, I believe Stalin still puts you within Godwin’s Law. Sorry.
should we make people feel bad for their choices
We can’t make people feel bad for their choices unless we start MKULTRA II.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 10:26 pm
OK. Sorry. Bad analogy. Bad paraphrase.
Fine. Abortion on demand is the only possible position, expecting women to make and justify moral decisions on adult grounds is fascism, and everybody who doesn’t adhere to that is a fundamentalist pro-life troll.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 10:41 pm
Pouting doesn’t get you within Godwin’s law, but it does make you a big crybaby.
Really, the strongest argument for the pro-life side is that abortion is murder. The problem is that people don’t really want to follow that argument to its logical conclusion–every woman who gets an abortion is Susan Smith–and in classic fashion resolve cognitive dissonance with bizarre reasoning. (Yes, but it’s OK in the case of rape; the woman isn’t guilty because the evil abortionists led her astray and tricked her; you know the drill.)
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 10:44 pm
If she was unprepared to accept the risk of getting pregnant with triplets, she should not have gone off the pill. By choosing to stop birth control, she chose to forgo her life of convenience and accept the risk of bearing children.
This is not consistent with the views of the pro-choice movement. This is consistent with the views of the anti-choice movement. It smacks of anti-choice cliche w/ buzzphrases such as “life of convenience.”
Do you want to address the argument rather than continue to troll? Or do you want to see how clever you can get while distracting from any possibility of discussion? Surely you can do better than this.
This comment was written by Jake Squid.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 10:47 pm
That isn’t the strongest argument. That’s the argument that pro-choicers would most like to engage, because it permits facile dismissal of the position.
The strongest pro-life argument is that reproductive choices have moral consequences, that such choices should be made in a framework of balancing rights and responsibilities, and that this framework will generally though not always dispositively tilt in favor of the nurturing of new life.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 10:47 pm
It’s also not consistent with the facts. As has previously pointed out to hotshot. Amy Richards did not have an ‘oops’. She wanted to be pregnant. Just not with triplets.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 11:01 pm
That is also an argument that is brought up consistently by pro-lifers. When this (admittedly) facile argument is written by those in your camp, that is what we engage. What argument did hotshot bring to us? The argument that Richards didn’t want to give up her “life of convenience” (conveniently ignoring the fact that she did have a child). Then you came along and defended it with underhanded tactics and devolved into comparisons to Stalin. Which, I might point out, was also addressed by your opposition. Now you want to complain that these are arguments that the pro-choice folks want to address. You’re not making any sense. Unless you’re trying to start a new line of discussion - in which case you might want to do it honestly and without throwing underhanded insults at those who don’t agree with the aforementioned facile anti-choice argument.
This comment was written by Jake Squid.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 11:02 pm
Does this read like vigorous (-yet-responsible) debate to you? Because it reads to me like a dishonest, self-serving misrepresentation of what’s being said here, by someone who’s definitely smart enough to know better.
Also, what mythago said.
This comment was written by piny.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 11:23 pm
Piny:
The pro-life troll part is rhetoric, I’ll grant that.
Unpack the rest of the “self-serving misrepresentation,” please.
Show the whereins how my statement isn’t the bottom-line position of the pro-choice partisans posting here. What deviation from unrestricted-abortion-on-demand can be legitimately argued as being “pro-choice”?
What requests for moral justification on the part of women making a choice can a partner, a community, or a philosophy legitimately require of a pregnant woman?
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 12:31 am
I know I’m a bit late in the game here, but I’d like to encourage everyone to remain civil.
Robert, as you’ve already acknowleged, the Stalin comment was way over the line - that was really trollish of you. And in general, I think you could have done a lot more in this thread to communicate in a way that was likely to be heard, rather than in a way that was likely to lay down fuel for flames.
Jake, the first part of post #122 was a personal attack. You don’t have to agree with the moderation policies here, but please try to abide by them anyway.
* * *
Regarding how Hotshot was received:
Hotshot is entitled to her or his opinion. But I think it would have been received a lot better if it had included more of an acknowlegement of and response to the other arguments in this thread, or at least to the arguments in the opening post. As it was, I really got the impression that Hotshot was here more to disagree than to discuss, which probably fed into the response that Hotshot received.
Gee, how could extremist language like “only possible position” “adult grounds” and “fascism” be taken for a misrepresentation? What a puzzle!
Obviously, pro-choicers disagree all the time on questions like third trimester abortions (some pro-choicers beleive that it should be banned except in the case of danger to the mother’s health or life). Some pro-choicers beleive that some decisions to have an abortion can be immoral; for instance, sex-selective abortions, or abortions to prevent disabled children from being born.
So your claim that there is only one possible position is wrong.
And Richards’ decision was an adult decision. If you can’t acknowlege that, then that suggests that you’re unable to understand that adults can legitimately disagree.
This comment was written by Ampersand.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 1:20 am
“What requests for moral justification on the part of women making a choice can a partner, a community, or a philosophy legitimately require of a pregnant woman?”
Depends on what you mean by “legitimately.”
Robert, your analogy comparing hotshot to dissenters who help you see your own faults is false because the question wasn’t about whether critiques should be tolerated. The question was about whether someone who puts certain conditions on abortion that have nothing to do with the health and safety of others could really be called pro-choice and if these particular arguments are really pro-choice.
I say no because it treats abortion as something fundamentally different - above and beyond the question of if the fetus has rights. There are choices I consider to be bad, and others I consider to be good, but hotshot’s only argument for Richards’ choice being “bad” has nothing to do with moral obligations to her partner or community. Such obligations would exist no matter why she chooses to do what she did; and if they don’t trump her choice to get pregant or not in the first place, why would they trump her choice to have only one child and not three?
I know plenty of people who made the choice to only have one or two children, or to not have children right now, because it would require too many changes in their lives. Most (modern) parents do this - including my sister who is a SAHM. Why is Richards any different from her?
Outside of the idea of fetus rights, the idea that a woman is obligated in some way to carry every pregnancy to term simply because “she already made that choice” is just ludicrous. If it’s morally acceptable to have an abortion because the fetus is severely mentally disabled - and thus will require more of the parents than was expected - why is it not morally acceptable to have an abortion because having any child (or two or three at the same time) will require more of the parents than expected?
Perhaps hotshot believes that parents who have abortions because the fetus is disabled and that parents who factor in their own comfort and desires into their reproductive decisions aren’t making “good” choices, but (from what I understood) Richards was telling her story in response to people who think that both are least “ok” choices - but still like to make the “she already made that choice” argument.
This comment was written by Mickle.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 1:30 am
It’s been a very difficult day emotionally and I shouldn’t have posted here at all (see my blog for why if you care) particularly on a contentious topic. Not an excuse, just an explanation. My apologies for the over-the-line statements.
BTW, I disagree that Jake’s #122 was a personal attack. He was making an assertion of historical truth concerning the way I write and argue; he’s laughably wrong, but that’s not personal.
Making a last gasp effort for civility:
Piny and/or Jake, do you concur that you can be “pro-choice” and still believe that third-trimester abortions are wrong, that people should not have sex-selection abortions, that aborting disabled kids for that reason is wrong, etc.?
On Richards’ decision being “adult”, in my worldview part of something being adult is that it’s maker can and will stand scrutiny and criticism. If it’s invalid in and of itself to scrutinize a decision (or to say “well, you have the power to make that decision, but boy do I think you’re wrong”) then I wouldn’t call it an adult decision. That’s the kind of decision that teenagers want to make - power, no feedback. Or so I recall, from mumbledy mumble years ago.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 7:34 am
Robert: Piny and/or Jake, do you concur that you can be “pro-choice” and still believe that third-trimester abortions are wrong, that people should not have sex-selection abortions, that aborting disabled kids for that reason is wrong, etc.?
Sure: but being pro-choice means that, whatever your personal morality, you will support a woman’s right to choose to have an abortion in the third-trimester or to choose to abort a fetus she knows will be born disabled or - if it is genuinely her own choice, and not a forced abortion - to choose to abort a fetus because it’s male or because it’s female.
I was once asked by a friend if I’d support a woman’s right to choose if it meant a homophobic bigot aborted a fetus that had tested positive for “the gay gene”. I thought about it, and said yes, I would: I support any woman’s right to choose to have an abortion for a reason that seems good to her. If a woman cannot bear the thought of bearing a child she’s certain will grow up gay, she should have an abortion - that’s her right. I may disagree with her reasons, but I support her right to choose. No woman should ever be forced to carry to term a child she does not wish to have, regardless why she does not wish to do so.
Tucking in “sex-selection abortion” is a nasty little trollish trick that’s typically you, Robert: as you know, sex-selection abortions are generally forced on a woman by the culture in which she lives that values boy children over girl children.
This comment was written by Jesurgislac.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 7:36 am
Ampersand: Robert, as you’ve already acknowleged, the Stalin comment was way over the line - that was really trollish of you. And in general, I think you could have done a lot more in this thread to communicate in a way that was likely to be heard, rather than in a way that was likely to lay down fuel for flames.
Yes, but why should he bother? He knows that anyone who flames him may be banned, but he will never be banned. He has no need ever to be on good behavior here: it’s the rest of us who have to watch our step around him.
This comment was written by Jesurgislac.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 7:48 am
I concur w/ Jesurgislac’s comment (#136). But I follow that same logic for pretty much any medical procedure. There is a fundamental disagreement between my position & that of fetus-firsters. That is, I don’t believe that a fetus is a person whereas they do. You can try to tickle out contradictions in my position by asking about 3rd trimester abortions (extremely rare), sex-selection, etc. but that won’t get you anywhere nor will it serve to find common ground. If you believe a fetus is a person, with all the rights that go along w/ the legal status of being a person, you and I will never agree.
This comment was written by Jake Squid.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 8:49 am
Actually, because I know Robert from other forums, I can tell that he actually does make a good-faith effort to be on “good behavior” here. If I didn’t beleive that was true, I wouldn’t refuse to ban him.
If anything, I tend to moderate Robert more than I moderate most other posters. For instance, although you may feel I moderate you more harshly than Robert, I don’t recall ever deleting posts of yours, or kicking you off a thread; I’ve done both these things with Robert.
This comment was written by Ampersand.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 8:53 am
This reflects my own, personal pro-choice position. However, in the larger culture, many people who favor banning late-term abortions except when the mother’s health or life are in danger, are nonetheless credited with being pro-choice. For example, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and most other leaders of the Democratic Party have favored a late-term abortion ban, but they are still widely considered “pro-choice” and supported by organizations like NARAL.
This comment was written by Ampersand.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 9:01 am
Ampersand: I can tell that he actually does make a good-faith effort to be on “good behavior” here.
So, one standard for Robert, another standard for the rest of us?
For instance, although you may feel I moderate you more harshly than Robert, I don’t recall ever deleting posts of yours, or kicking you off a thread; I’ve done both these things with Robert.
Ah, there we come to my supposed “bias” against you. I have no objections to make of your moderation of me: my criticisms of you are sourced in your behavior, even if you prefer to set them down to a “bias”.
I presume that if I were to behave as trollishly as Robert does, you would delete my comments or kick me off a thread: I presume that as you haven’t, I haven’t.
This comment was written by Jesurgislac.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 9:01 am
Ah, hell.
Amp, this is bullshit:
“Jake, the first part of post #122 was a personal attack. You don’t have to agree with the moderation policies here, but please try to abide by them anyway.”
As long as men [read: MEN] continue their bullshit arguments about abortion and life and conception and women’s choices then, yes, maybe, just maybe, what Jake said was a personal attack. But as long as abortion is a freaking REALITY [read: REALITY] for women and their bodies, and that REALITY is being limited by the State [read: women's choices are not autonomous] then what Robert is doing is a personal attack. Of the vilest sort. But, because you are men, and the reality is that abortion does NOT HAPPEN TO YOUR BODIES, you can bitch and moan about “personal attacks” as if all that amounts to is name calling. Your personal attacks on women are insidious in their transparency and your willingness to police the rules of engagement when we are discussing our social and political parameters. Robert speaks from a seat of male supremacy and gets to giggle behind his hands at the silly feminists who, according to him, are just really bitch-slapping each other. That, my friend, is a personal attack. With real consequences. It doesnt’ matter if anyone here calls Roberts style “dishonest.” What matters is that men like him, who really could give two shits less about disinvesting themselves of their male supremacy, vote and partake in a social and political system that is predicated on their male biology, so that issues like abortion look like moral issues, rather than the health issues they really are. Women’s “choice” looks more like “choices that men are comfortable with” when you have men like Robert and yourself dictating what is honest and what is dishonest discourse. When Robert is being dishonest and manipulating threads to suit his ego needs, we have every right to call him on his bullshit. He has no inherent right to decency from us when he is willing to play high and loose with issues that are more real to us than they are theoretical.
But you know all this Amp. We’ve been over it quite a few times.
This comment was written by Q Grrl.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 9:07 am
Also, for the record, what the hell does anyone mean by “abortion on demand”?
That phrase alone lets me know exactly how men value autonomy in women’s choices.
…their porn is protected free speech (sex on demand, one could say), but women’s health issues = abortion on demand. The objectification of women, certainly the objectification of women as sexual and immoral, couldn’t get any more obvious.
This comment was written by Q Grrl.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 9:22 am
I always understood “abortion on demand” to mean that any pregnant woman should be able to walk up to any abortion provider and get an abortion, without having to get some other party to sign consent waivers or the like; that abortion providers should be available everywhere in the country; and that abortions should be provided free to anyone who can’t afford to pay.
In particular, it’s my impression that the phrase originated in debates about if abortion should be paid for for poor women. However, my impression may be mistaken.
And, come to think of it, I’m in favor of “abortion on demand.” At least, if I understand what it means correctly, I favor it.
But I agree that it’s a very nebulous phrase, and what people mean when they say it is not clear.
This comment was written by Ampersand.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 9:24 am
First off, I want to point out that Amy Richards did not have an abortion, because she continued to carry one of the fetuses. Abortion terminates a pregnancy. She had a selective reduction, where two of the three fetuses she was carrying were terminated.
Robert: On Richards’ decision being “adult”, in my worldview part of something being adult is that it’s maker can and will stand scrutiny and criticism. If it’s invalid in and of itself to scrutinize a decision (or to say “well, you have the power to make that decision, but boy do I think you’re wrong”) then I wouldn’t call it an adult decision. That’s the kind of decision that teenagers want to make - power, no feedback. Or so I recall, from mumbledy mumble years ago.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with scrutinizing her decision, and it can certainly withstand valid criticism. The problem we’re having here is that hotshot claimed to be pro-choice and yet objected to Richards’ decision on decidedly anti-choice grounds. And also on grounds that had absolutely nothing to do with the merits of the procedure she had, but rather had everything to do with mocking the choices of what he obviously saw as an uppity, privileged single urban slut.
And for the record, I don’t have any problem with someone who is pro-choice but has qualms about post-viability abortions. Of course, as a practical matter, those procedures are highly rare and performed only when the mother is in danger.
This comment was written by zuzu.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 9:29 am
Well, Amp, that phrase is as dangerous as it is disengenuous. A woman asking for an abortion is a woman asking for an abortion; I fail to see how poverty makes it a “demand.” In this case, I would argue that “demand” is used in much the same way that “hysterical” is/was. It puts the age-old assumption of women’s over emotionality on the issue, when in fact the woman is requesting a medical procedure.
This comment was written by Q Grrl.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 9:31 am
Just want to throw this out there, in regards to Richards’ choice looking immature or selfish to the men in the audience:
Who’s being selfish? Immature? Immoral?
A bunch of men who can’t get pregnant, that’s who.
Don’t ask us to be civil when this shit is going down in 2006.
This comment was written by Q Grrl.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 9:43 am
That isn’t the strongest argument.
Indeed it is. “Personal responsibility” is not nearly as emotionally powerful as “baby-killing.” It’s actually much easier to attack the responsibility argument–that’s how you get exceptions for rape and failed birth control and so on.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 10:37 am
Just so long as we all understand that this is completely different from what you were saying earlier:
Sure, with the caveats that Jake outlined. By that measure, hotshot is indeed pro-choice. So’s my mom. And so am I.
However, Mr. Vigorous Debate, hotshot is an adult hashing out a political position in the company of other adults. He has to deal with criticism of his beliefs about what is and is not responsible, moral behavior. I think his moral calculus is wrongheaded–in fact, as I said earlier, I find it downright bizarre. I also think that its oddities stem from unexamined sexism which, left unexamined, does endanger women’s choices. There’s nothing wrong, rude, oppressive, or ill-advised about saying so.
Amy Richards is in the same category, although I see that other commenters disagree. I don’t have a problem with her decision being “scrutinized.” I feel, however, that the extra scrutiny placed on her decision and on women who make similar decisions is (a) wrongheaded and (b) sexist. Again, there’s nothing wrong, rude, oppressive, or ill-advised about saying so.
This comment was written by piny.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 10:48 am
By abortion-on-demand I mean the idea that any woman can have any abortion for any reason, provided free if she doesn’t have the means, and nobody anywhere has any power to stop her. An absolute restriction on restrictions, in other words. Not exactly how Amp defined it but fairly close. We don’t have abortion-on-demand in the United States; you generally can’t get one past a certain point in time, for one thing. That framing of AoD seems useful to me in that it distinguishes between absolutists and non-absolutists. There’s a philosophical difference in there.
Jesurgislac, my “trollish trick” of inserting sex-selection abortion was a response to Ampersand’s inclusion of that type of abortion in his list of abortions that a “pro-choice” person might disagree with. I assume that you simply missed that - and that as someone arguing in good faith, you’ll retract your comment.
It is worth emphasizing from my point of view (I can’t speak for Ampersand, but I’m pretty sure this is true), I indeed can be banned - if my behavior regularly falls into the range of behaviors that Ampersand finds objectionable in his space. That I won’t be banned is a prediction on the part of Amp about my respect for his rules, not a statement of privilege on my part. I can similarly say that Mythago will never be banned from my blog - because she never comments in a way that would get her banned, and I assume that behavior will continue. If she starts spouting vileness, then out she’ll go; I just expect that she will never do that.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 11:23 am
Robert: I indeed can be banned - if my behavior regularly falls into the range of behaviors that Ampersand finds objectionable in his space. That I won’t be banned is a prediction on the part of Amp about my respect for his rules, not a statement of privilege on my part.
So you’d ban Mythago for spouting vileness, but expect that Ampersand will continue to tolerate your spouting vileness because that falls within the range of behaviors Amp finds unobjectionable?
Jesurgislac, my “trollish trick” of inserting sex-selection abortion was a response to Ampersand’s inclusion of that type of abortion in his list of abortions that a “pro-choice” person might disagree with.
So, again, you prefer to lay blame on Ampersand rather than take responsibility for your own words?
This comment was written by Jesurgislac.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 11:28 am
I mean the idea that any woman can have any abortion for any reason
Which Roe does not support. (Nor does it support the idea that the government must pay for them–hello, the government doesn’t even have to pay for well-child care!)
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 11:51 am
Jesurgislac, you explicitly accused me of trolling by bringing up the subject of sex selection. I did not bring up the subject; someone else did, and I responded to it, appropriately and in context. If you wish to characterize that as laying blame rather than taking responsibility, that’s your prerogative, but I hope you will forgive me for deprecating the seriousness with which you should be addressed in the future.
I would ban Mythago for spouting vileness. I expect that Amp would ban me for spouting vileness. That he considers what I have to say as being non-vile (however wrong or objectionable) would appear to be clear; that you disagree is, again, your prerogative. Since there is very little that I have to say which does not fall squarely within the mainstream of American political thought, I’m not sure what you expect to gain by characterizing my statements as vile.
At the moment, you are in a position of labeling entirely appropriate and contextual responses “trolling”, and (it appears) demanding that the host of a blog you do not own adopt your own views and policies as his own. I would consider that classic trolling, and in my own space, it would not be long tolerated - but this isn’t my own space, it’s Amp’s, and I have no business telling him how to run things or expecting him to think the way I do.
Mythago, I explicitly said that we don’t have AoD in the US. Not sure what your point is.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
I am backing away from the thread now, reminding myself that it’s better just to stay *off* any thread on Alas A Blog about any feminist issues.
*backing away*
This comment was written by Jesurgislac.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
I’m not sure what feminist issue you have in mind as being problematic here, Jesurgislac. You accused me of a “trollish trick” when the actual issue was your simple misreading of a thread’s content, and apparent reluctance to acknowledge an ordinary error.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators