Comments on: How Feminism Has Changed Judaism

By: wolfangel

wolfangel — Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:50:36 +0000

Many (all?) Conservative Jews I know write pre-nups specifically to cover this, usually giving huge financial penalties (10k/day) if the partner won’t give a Jewish divorce (I believe this is following the civil divorce, but I forget the details).

By: mythago

mythago — Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:47:10 +0000

Of course, the problem of not being able to receive an (Orthodox) Jewish divorce in only relevant if the woman wishes to receive a subsequent Orthodox Jewish marriage.

No. If the woman remarries, her children are mamzerim, i.e., illegitimate, and their participation in many aspects of Jewish religious life can be affected.

And your comment about city hall is correct for women who live in the US.

By: Richard Bellamy

Richard Bellamy — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:56:10 +0000

Of course, the problem of not being able to receive an (Orthodox) Jewish divorce in only relevant if the woman wishes to receive a subsequent Orthodox Jewish marriage. Nothing is preventing the woman from going to City Hall and getting divorced and re-married to anyone she wants.

So, while the system is inherently unfair, it is only unfair to those who choose to remain within the system.

By: Rachel Ann

Rachel Ann — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:30:09 +0000

You are correct Mythago, regarding a divorce, and various Rabbi’s are looking into ways to rectify the solution. (just google Rabbi Riskin, my Rabbi, and divorce…Rabbi Riskin is very unique). I also have a problem with the agunah situation in Judaism. (A man gives the divorce. Men too, can get “stuck” in a marriage if the woman refuses to allow a divorce, but they have an out that the women don’t have–get a hundred Rabbis to agree and the divorce is given against her will). I do believe there will be a Torah solution, I pray it comes soon. This is a stain on us in the meantime (that any woman would be forced to continue in a marriage in name only)

By: mythago

mythago — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:20:26 +0000

Whether or not they submit to their husband’s leadership, Rachel Ann, they are subject to their husband’s desire to be married or not; there’s no way for an Orthodox woman to divorce her husband, for example.

That said, Elkins is right: women who find the traditional role of women empowering, whose husbands respect their separate role, and so on, are of course likelier to remain Orthodox than woman who aren’t happy in that. It’s not as though there is an Orthodox pope who can excommunicate you, and at any rate, there are many flavors of Orthodoxy (as I’m sure you know).

By: Rachel Ann

Rachel Ann — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 04:05:32 +0000

Elkins; you are most likely correct. Those who are happy, well they are happy. I do want to point out, Robert, that most of the Orthodox women I know do NOT submit to their husbands leadership. That isn’t part and parcel of the relationship. It does, I concede, exist in some relationships, but for the most part, the women I know are strong minded, and equal partners. And Ampersand, you would be surprised, pleseantly I hope, at the sources available to women who “want to get out of it.”

By: Ampersand

Ampersand — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:06:22 +0000

It’s an OUTRAGE that there are women who want to raise children and submit to a husband’s leadership; they must be freed!

If there are any feminists who actually feel that way, I suspect they’re pretty marginal. Some feminists may find the idea sad or bizarre (not the raising of children, the submission to hubby’s leadership), but as long as the woman is able to leave if she wants to, I find it hard to imagine anyone saying “she must be freed.”

The issue, for feminists, might be “does she have the social support and resources to leave IF she wants to?”

By: Robert

Robert — Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:40:30 +0000

Indeed, the phenomenon that Elkins describes is one of the key arguments in favor of a pluralistic and diverse society. There are women who will be happy in an Orthodox Jewish community. There are women who will be happy in a secular feminist community. And add about thirty million other example combinations of social circumstances, mores, and norms.

To maximize the happiness of the members of a society, simply make the society’s universal values be an acceptance of people’s right to self-determination and an acceptance that there will be a wide range of diverse social groups in existence. Then people will sort themselves out and the average level of happiness will be quite high.

Unfortunately, there are people from many perspectives who find such a state of affairs intolerable. It’s an OUTRAGE that there are women who want to raise children and submit to a husband’s leadership; they must be freed! It’s an OUTRAGE that there are women who want to live independent lives and be the head of their own household; they must be brought into line! And so on.

People who think their social arrangements are the only ones acceptable for other people pose the true danger to pluralism and, by extension, happiness.

By: Elkins

Elkins — Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:47:37 +0000

It makes sense to me, Rachel Ann. One thing to consider here, I suspect, is that people who feel disempowered by their upbringing or culture — whatever that culture may be — are also the ones the most likely to drift away from it or divorce themselves from it as they get older. In my experience, at any rate, it is generally among the EX members of any given group that you hear the most bitter complaints about disempowerment. Those who do not feel themselves to be particularly disenfranchised are also the people most likely to continue to identify themselves as members of the group.

So while I don’t find it particularly surprising to read that “nearly half the women surveyed by Ma’yan reported being discriminated against in the Jewish community on the basis of gender,” neither do I find it at all difficult to believe that many Orthodox Jewish women don’t feel disempowered, or that the more traditional they are, the less likely they may be to feel that way. To put it really bluntly, if you’ll forgive me for doing so, women who don’t care for the prescribed gender roles of Orthodoxy are also probably the most likely to assimilate, after which they would no longer either identify or register as the “more traditional” members of the community.

By: Rachel Ann

Rachel Ann — Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:33:32 +0000

It is odd, because if you ask most Orthdoox Jewish women, especially the more traditional women, they have never felt disempowered. I am not saying that all Orthodox Jewish women feel that way, but the more traditional they are, the less they feel as if they are lacking something.
Does that make sense to you?(and yes, I am speaking from personal experience.)