Comments on: Well I always knew that “fairy tale” stories were crap.

By: A.J. Luxton

A.J. Luxton — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:50:36 +0000

I’ve seen a piece of fanfic that interprets Utena as FTM… which is kinda cool, though I’m not certain whether I agree, as there are many versions of female masculinity (see book by such title.)

By: RadFemHedonist

RadFemHedonist — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:50:47 +0000

Utena is great, not least because the women aren’t really feminine so much as designed to fit the series’ aesthetic, The Twelve Kingdoms also features a strong female heroine, but is stuck with a bunch of bollocks relating to it being about a Queen and not say a female president.

What would you recommend for college students, an adult level subversion/destruction of fairy tales and the archetypes contained therein?

By: Raina

Raina — Tue, 08 Aug 2006 02:12:48 +0000

I think some are missing the point of fairy tales. Fairy tales provide a developmentally appropriate medium for children to learn that their conflicts and anxieties can be solved and eased. Fairy tales provide normality for the child who is struggling with his or her own destructive impulses and desires.

Children do not interpret the external world in the same way adults do-they are cognitively and psychologically unable to-hence childhood. Children are aggressive, destructive and hateful whether or not you shield them from fairy stories. To take away the chance to learn that they and their parents whom they love and depend on will survive these impulses is irresponsible.

Through following the survival of the hero-child in a fairy tale, a child learns (albeit unconsciously) to integrate the “good” and “bad” parts of the self, learn that they will prevail from what is most perilous at the time and learn that perseverance, hard work and faith and hope will result in success. If one analyses fairy tales for their social/political implications based on the manifest content of the stories then one can not appreciate the psychological relevance fairy tales have for children.

Children do not enjoy fairy tales because they are an escape from reality-that is why adults enjoy them-children enjoy fairy tales because they make meaning for the confusion caused by their external world on their internal world.

This is a very brief summary of some of the views in “The Uses of Enchantment” by Bruno Bettelheim and I agree with him whole heartedly. Check it out-broaden your minds, stop taking everything so literally. Good luck.

By: K. Harmon

K. Harmon — Tue, 14 Mar 2006 17:54:58 +0000

My mother was also the type that never exposed me to “Cinderella”, “Sleeping Beauty”, or “Snow White”. It wasn’t until I was 15 years old that I say cinderella for the first time. Somehow I do believe that those type of movies are great escape from reality which movies are more than likely intended to be, but in ever movie there is an underlying significance and I do believe that “if I wait long enough, this man will rescue me and be everything that I could Ever Dream of “, is the underlying message of these types of movies. It teaches every little girl who view them that there is a ‘prince charming’ for her. The things that we learn as children do carry over into our adult hood and yes as women we do want to live ‘Happily Ever After’ whatever the hell that is, and if that indeed where not the case everyone would not be so hung up on finding a mate. It’s okay to want that but, we have to teach our little girls that it doesn’t work like that in reality.

By: Missi

Missi — Sat, 28 May 2005 17:52:56 +0000

Hmmm. Found this site quite by accident and now has me thinking of my own childhood in the 60’s and 70’s. I was not allowed to have my own Barbie’s for fear that my perception of what a woman ’should’ look like would be warped. So I went to my friend’s house and played with them. Sssh don’t tell my mother! Come to think of it, I can’t remember having books of Cinderella or Snow White.. however I do remember Where The Wild Things Are, Wind in the Willows, and of course all things classic as my mother has a masters in English Lit. Now I’m a parent of three daughters and a writer of… (eek!) a tale of three fairy sisters. I give my girls a little more credit for making up their own minds rather than forcing my own beliefs. My girls are empowered by making their own choices about what they like and dislike. Actually I consider myself somewhat submissive, not due to keeping my nose in books about the helpless heroine, but rather not being allowed to read them.

By: Pseudo-Adrienne

Pseudo-Adrienne — Fri, 06 May 2005 21:18:56 +0000

Thanks folks for the feedback. And thanks NYMOM. I don’t know if Amp will make me a cartoon or not. I could ask him though.

By: NYMOM

NYMOM — Fri, 06 May 2005 20:17:49 +0000

BTW, Pseudo-Adrienne…

I like your new location very much…

Will you be getting your own cartoon head also, now that you’re an official person on the blog…

Good luck…

By: karpad

karpad — Wed, 04 May 2005 16:59:21 +0000

Sleeping beauty is a messianic metaphor.
kinda like The Matrix.
Your life, be it good or bad, will, because of a certain evil (original sin or curse from evil witch or whatever) will eventually end.
but this end is not permenant, and someday, everything will be made right by the arrival of some bearded guy or some creep who humps you while you’re asleep as some sort of CPR.

By: Radfem

Radfem — Wed, 04 May 2005 01:03:41 +0000

Life is crap, which gave birth to fairy tales of all kinds. I mean, good conquers evil, when? In stories mostly, occasionally real life, but evil wins most of the time. Corrupation prevails. That handsome prince might beat the crap out of you.

Life is hard. Fairytales can be an escape, or they can impart important survival lessons, like folk tales. Unfortunately at the moment, I’m having trouble figuring out what the lesson of Sleeping Beauty is. :p

By: karpad

karpad — Wed, 04 May 2005 00:55:08 +0000

as in “You see Belle? you’re smarter than she is, sweetie, so for god’s sake, if some creep ever tries to lock you in some castle, kick him in the groin and call the cops.”
Or was your counterprogram more sophisticated?

By: Ab_Normal

Ab_Normal — Tue, 03 May 2005 20:11:43 +0000

I’m sure my daughter got tired of watching Disney movies with me (especially the older ones) because I would explicitly counter-program while the movie was still running.

By: Paul

Paul — Tue, 03 May 2005 03:47:02 +0000

For newer fairy tales (well, maybe not so new anymore), try:

Jack Zipes, ed., Don’t Bet on the Prince
Patricia Wrede, Enchanted Forest Chronicles (Dealing with Dragons, Searching for Dragons, Calling on Dragons & Talking to Dragons)

Relatively cheap in paperback, cheaper if used, and if money is tight go to public libraries and ask for interlibrary loans.

By: mythago

mythago — Sun, 01 May 2005 22:57:48 +0000

I think the issue, if there is one, is that fairy tales teach that romantic behavior in a man is coming on strong and “rescuing”? and other things like that.

Well, yes, the handful of fairy tales that Disney made into movies teach that. Although according to the second-hand account of this study, a little girl who was ‘exposed’ to the Disney movies would be sure to be less submissive than one who read the literary antecedents.

By: Lucio

Lucio — Sun, 01 May 2005 13:10:42 +0000

I genuinely believe that as long as a child can has the opportunity to know the difference, then there will nto be a problem. After all, if a child who had recently read Harry Potter jumped off the roof of his tenement building with a broom between his legs, is it really the fault of the author? Or whoever is in charge of his education for not teaching him/her tryth from fiction?

P.S. I adore classical fairy tales, especially the Gothic novels! I am a dark and brooding type, in case anyone missed it.

By: Brian

Brian — Sun, 01 May 2005 01:13:16 +0000

I’m puzzled by one comment that seemed very odd.

Darker-Smith said she believed younger generations exposed to television and other entertainment media may react differently and be less submissive than those weaned solely on literature.

It’s a rare child that is completely denied all access to entertainment other than literature. My sister and I were voracious readers, but we watched television too. It was only the children of extraordinarily strict parents who didn’t get to watch television. I’d expect that parents who barred their children from any entertainment but reading would in general be far, far more repressive and controlling than most parents — and that would be more significant than what stories their children actually read. I wonder if this reflects some bias in Darker-Smith’s study.

By: karpad

karpad — Sat, 30 Apr 2005 07:42:02 +0000

hot damn! someone else remembers east of the sun, west of the moon!
as I recall as a child, my favorite books as a child were that, an absolutely wonderful version of Monkey’s Journey to the West, Toad is the Uncle of Heaven, and this one creepy fairy tale structure I recall vaguely but don’t recall the exact title (I think it was “The Bells of Ys,” which is not unlike what would happen if Sleeping Beauty suddenly woke up on her own to find her palace abandoned. I believe it ended with her bringing about the physical destruction of the City of Ys.)

I think the work has come up here before, Clive Barker’s Abarat series, is a great fantastic story with a strong female lead.

I await the day some good friend or sibling has children, thus allowing me the chance to play uncle and tell a good story, the kind children need to hear.
and I’m gonna make it up on the spot, because the best children’s stories are made up by smart people doing improv…
that might be an interesting project, were I less lazy. If I manage to motivate myself, I might start volunteering my services to collecting and posting children’s short stories by you lot. you all seem to have a lot on the ball, I’m sure we’d get some good ones.

By: syfr

syfr — Sat, 30 Apr 2005 00:33:16 +0000

emjaybee,

Yeah, that’s a good thing in “East of the Sun, West of the Moon,” and I like her stubbornness, and the fact that she rescues him.

In addition to Utena and Robin McKinley, many of the women in Charles de Lint’s stories (more for adults/ older teens) are cool. And the Terri Windling/ Ellen Datlow edited series that starts with “Snow White, Blood Red,” is good too, but also not for little kids.

By: Samantha

Samantha — Fri, 29 Apr 2005 22:57:20 +0000

So, now I feel better about telling my daughter that the girl in Rumplstiltskin was a stupid, stupid woman for marrying the king after he imprisoned her and then made her do what she wanted.

By: Redneck Feminist (drumgurl)

Redneck Feminist (drumgurl) — Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:33:00 +0000

I blogged about this last week, too. Like Amanda, I don’t think it’s about submissiveness. I think it has more to do with unrealistic expectations. (No, I don’t mean the abuse part, I mean the fairy tale part.)

By: Elena

Elena — Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:12:59 +0000

I used to read bodice rippers as a kid; I think that they are really about porn for women, and the rape thing is to make it acceptable, in a twisted way, for the young heroine to have sex. I also recall that when the man raped the woman, frequently he didn’t know he was raping her- he would assume she was a prostitute come to service him or there would be another convoluted plot device exonerating him somehow. I have read that these type of books have changed quite a bit with changed attitudes about women and sex and that the rape thing isn’t as prevalent anymore.