I see the Bible as a comedy of errors, oozing hypocrisy of biblical proportions .

According to the Washington Post article, the FEMALE- and HOMO-PHOBIC congregations are breaking-away in PROTEST, and the diocese is MOST CONCERNED that they will be taking their “buildings & property” with them. And yet…according to their Bible, The Lord Jesus told the disciples, “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal” (Matthew 6:19-20).

My goodness, first a GAY Bishop, then a FEMALE Bishop, and now the loss of their “earthly treasures”…the Episcopal Empire must be asking themselves: “Oh Lord, why hath thou forsaken us?”

Anyway, this farce of “protecting the sanctity of marriage” by declaring it to be “between a man and a woman” is their last line of defense from the “gay escapees”. The lyrics “I loved you once in silence” from the 1967 movie “Camelot” described heterosexual marital infidelity, but in my opinion also accurately depicts “the love that dare not speak it’s name”. Gays are FINALLY able to “swing wide their prison doors”. I REJOICE FOR THEM, AND STAND WITH THEM IN THEIR FIGHT FOR EQUAL RIGHTS!!! Joe Solmonese, President of The Human Rights Campaign, is my HERO! You go, Joe!!!

The protection and policing of this so-called “one man-one woman” marriage requirement, might prove problematic for the morally straight. Post #39 Amanda wrote: “Dan, incidentally, is legally married to a lesbian he has never kissed or lived with or had sex with or had children with–they got married to demonstrate how ludicrious marriage laws are that any two fools can marry if they have the correct set of genitals, but long time, loving families like his real one don’t have any rights.”

So how will the religious-right solve the dilemma of transgenders who have undergone sex changes, or hermaphrodites who are in possession of each set of genitals? I suppose full-body-cavity-searches, exrays, gender-correct birth-name searches will be required to secure a “marriage” license in the future?…just as the color of one’s skin was a requirement before 1967?

In answer to post #14 jstevenson’s question “What was the catalyst for making male homosexuality, something that was lauded, something that is now causing posts regarding homophobia?”, post #19 nexy jo wrote: “CHRISTIANITY”. Right you are! Their alpha-male, homophobic attitudes amount to, once again, MORE bible comedy…According to their Bible, male homosexuality and/or male masturbation were tantamount to abortion or murder, and punishable by death. However, because lesbians “don’t spill seed” when they masturbate, they were/are exempt? … Well, at least ONCE in their Bible, the FEMALES had the upper hand? (pardon the pun)…At least I can’t blame MY after-death experience on “masturbation”!

I see “religions” as comedies, and crutches for people who fear the FINALITY of death. And in their inability to accept DEATH, they are missing out on LIFE. My wish for all society is to embrace COMMON-SENSE, instead of NON-SENSE (the Bible). But, with the U.S. population reaching 300 million, I suppose it’s time for history to repeat itself, and thin out the crowd with another RELIGIOUSLY INSPIRED war…

Q Grrl is probably one of those folks who believes that bisexuals are evil traitors who would have left anyway, and it’s a wonder the sainted lesbian community tolerates them as much as they do.

Heterosexual privilege.

This is utter bullshit.

How exactly is it utter bullshit? Are you denying that biphobia exists int he lesbian community? Or are you saying that Mythago’s explanation of why many bi women end up dating men is that they’re tired of being shat on by the lesbian community?

So to answer your final question, about what did I gain”“why does that query always seem to crop up in discussions about sexism, particularly when someone wans to end a conversation?”“I “gained”? an honest contribution to a heretofore friendly, interesting debate.

I’m not ending the conversation. I’m still here, posting.

I agree you did not ask me directly.

What you wrote is:

I realize that there is transphobia to contend with; of course I agree that it’s painful and dangerous and difficult. I’m living under its constraints, too. But it is not quite accurate to say that it’s like living as a woman with a woman’s fear of rape.

I am first and foremost a writer. But for me carries more weight than with others. You then write that it is “not quite accurate to say it’s like living as a woman with a woman’s fear of rape.”

That is not what I said.

Here is what I wrote:

But the threat - threats are part and parcel of oppression - is there nonetheless. I was in the ER last year. And I was terrified for a time. Another trans acquaintance was harassed twice in the same ER.

So while I do not visit the ER frequently I’m always afraid of it. And the fear - much like women’s fear of rape - serves to shape our choices and occupy a tremendous amount of mental and spiritual energy that could be used for other things.

You also wrote:

If we don’t understand how sexism behaves, and when its punishments are enforced, we can’t work to end sexism. If we don’t admit that masculinity and male presentation are a privilege for people like me and you, our perception of the humiliation meted out towards women and female-bodied people will never be accurate.

I agree with you and yet I choose to see sexism as more complex than what you have written. Humiliations are meted out constantly through a variety of contextual human behaviors. There are contexts, for example, in which a women can have more power than a man….a temporarily able bodied woman in the workforce will always have more power than a quadraplegic man languishing in a nursing home because medicaid won’t pay for him to live at home, where he can get a job.

Now a quadraplegic woman in similar circumstances is a different story.

You can’t really talk about what it’s like to be a transsexual, and the ways people treat transsexuals, without dealing with the way people treat men, including the men we frequently get to be.

I think I can. There are aspects of transsexualism, like hormone regimes, dealing with mental health diagnosis, barriers to insurance coverage, varying degrees of compassionate healthcare, how advances in medical technology have made people like me, the dog and pony show I have had to endure to change my birth certificate, driver’s license, passport and the 30,000 other pieces of paper that govern my life, that have _nothing_ to do with how people treat men.

As to whether or not how society treats me as a transsexual is related to misogyny I don’t know. I think it is a valid question.

I do know that oppressive forces work to constrain real human bodies, not linguistic artifacts. The forces that physically deny a woman the right to choose an arbortion - via the law or intimidation - are the same forces that make it very difficult for me to have done what I have done. How they constrain me is different. But the constraint exists, nonetheless.

I also understand that these same forces priviledge me as a transsexual man, as they also priviledge a natal female, though the priviledges are different.

In closing, I ended my last post with a question because it is a literary convention that makes the viewer think or pay attention. Questions in my book are almost never bad as they lead to more discussion and answers and more questions.

What do you think? ;-)

In our hierarchical world I have more than the vast majority of people do.

Yet I still live with fear. And adopting a position which forces people to deny, dilute or sequestor their fears to support a hierarchy only reinvents that hierarchy.

My likening my fear to a woman’s fear of rape was used only to suggest its pervasiveness in my life. I’m glad you don’t live with that kind of pervasive fear. No one should ever have to.

The pitting of “public”? versus “private”? issues in pecking order of oppression does not get us anywhere on the left. We end up arguing wth each other while our opponents go about setting up their empire.

In the end, what have you gained by answering my post in the manner that you did?>>

Before we deal with anything else: I have never, ever denied my own fear, or the fact of my own disadvantaged position, or the ways in which transphobia both perpetuates and exploits both. On an emotional level, transphobia has of course shaped my worldview and my daily interactions with other people; I worry about passing, discrimination, and violence as much as you do, I’m sure.

Nor have I ever asked you to “deny, dilute, or sequestor” your fears.

I am not establishing a “hierarchy,” merely pointing out that all lives are not the same. There are problems transpeople have that women don’t have. There is nothing counterproductive about analyzing the different ways different kinds of bigotry act to oppress different people. On the contrary, it is necessary to look in detail at the ways we all must live under the social constraints of prejudice. If we don’t understand how sexism behaves, and when its punishments are enforced, we can’t work to end sexism. If we don’t admit that masculinity and male presentation are a privilege for people like me and you, our perception of the humiliation meted out towards women and female-bodied people will never be accurate. You can’t really talk about what it’s like to be a transsexual, and the ways people treat transsexuals, without dealing with the way people treat men, including the men we frequently get to be.

So to answer your final question, about what did I gain–why does that query always seem to crop up in discussions about sexism, particularly when someone wans to end a conversation?–I “gained” an honest contribution to a heretofore friendly, interesting debate.

Why do you THINK so many of us end up with men? For a bi woman, even one who “leans queer,”? living in the lesbian community is like dating that guy who freaks out every time he even thinks you looked at another guy. Eventually you decide his paranoid shit isn’t worth the pleasure of his company.

This is utter bullshit.

There are a lot of different reasons people get married, or want to get married. I’m just going to look at mine for a minute.

I am not married because I love my husband and want to stay with him for a long time. That is why I live with him, not why we are married.

I am not married because I want my social environment (family, friends, co-workers) to acknowledge our relationship as legitimate. They were already doing that.

I am not married because I want children. While I had planned to get married before having children, we’re not going to be doing that for a while so it’s not really a factor at this time.

I got married so I could be on my husband’s health insurance. (Although right before the wedding I got a better job, so now he’s on my health insurance.) The other legal perks (being able to visit in the hospital, slight tax savings, etc.) were also nice, although we’ve never had a hospital incident so that was a theoretical sort of benefit. Also, my mother really wanted us to get married, apparently out of some kind of concern that my husband would wander off and forget to come back if there wasn’t a legal commitment. I never was quite clear on her reasoning there; I should ask next time I’m talking to her.

A lot of people get marrie d for the three reasons I didn’t. A lot of people get married for the reason I did. A lot of people get married for completely different reasons. It doesn’t matter why gay men (or women) want to get married, it is simply unfair that they are not allowed to.

I realize that there is transphobia to contend with; of course I agree that it’s painful and dangerous and difficult. I’m living under its constraints, too. But it is not quite accurate to say that it’s like living as a woman with a woman’s fear of rape. Very few women ever get to refrain from being publicly female. They don’t get to choose not to share, even with total strangers; their risky selves are right out there in the open. I have to worry if I am exposed; they have to worry everywhere, always. As a transperson, I am able to pass as a non-transperson. It’s important to distinguish my circumstances from those of someone who doesn’t have the option of joining, however temporarily or erroneously, the safe and privileged class”“the woman I used to be, for example.

I appreciate the distinctions regarding women’s fear of rape.

I am talking purely about feelings. And I understand the position you are taking. I, too, have taken it, and it is one that we on the left use frequently.

The end result of this position is that it places all people on a hierarchy of oppressions, I think. The end result is that people who appear publically different are “more” oppressed than people who have “hidden” issues.

As Audre Lorde reminds us, There are No Hierarchies of Oppression.

I used to speak in the way that you have shared on this post. For many years I denied my own fears because for all intents and purposes, I am a temporarily able bodied, white, upper middle class white man who is married. I do have much.

In our hierarchical world I have more than the vast majority of people do.

Yet I still live with fear. And adopting a position which forces people to deny, dilute or sequestor their fears to support a hierarchy only reinvents that hierarchy.

My likening my fear to a woman’s fear of rape was used only to suggest its pervasiveness in my life. I’m glad you don’t live with that kind of pervasive fear. No one should ever have to.

The pitting of “public” versus “private” issues in pecking order of oppression does not get us anywhere on the left. We end up arguing wth each other while our opponents go about setting up their empire.

In the end, what have you gained by answering my post in the manner that you did?

Why do you THINK so many of us end up with men? For a bi woman, even one who “leans queer,”? living in the lesbian community is like dating that guy who freaks out every time he even thinks you looked at another guy. Eventually you decide his paranoid shit isn’t worth the pleasure of his company.

Similarly for bi men from the gay community. Which is why I date men mostly from the bi community. I’ve had about two dates with gay men in my life. Most of them, I won’t consider.

As for piny’s comment on fetishizing, yeah, I’ve heard from my trans friends that that’s a huge problem. OTOH, I can understand the people who find such things hot.

Mythago–yup. Except that that guy also says horrible things about how slutty you and everyone like you are–he doesn’t just think that you’re probably a tramp, he thinks you’re constitutionally incapable of not sleeping around.

And if you’re a transguy, you get to sleep with all kinds of people who perform all kinds of mental acrobatics to simultaneously “boy” and “unman” you, so that they can fetishize your transmaleness but don’t have to carry the taint of bisexuality or Teh Gay.

My birth gender is not a factor in how I’m treated, until I share with others about my life. And then the field is wide open!

But the threat - threats are part and parcel of oppression - is there nonetheless. I was in the ER last year. And I was terrified for a time. Another trans acquaintance was harassed twice in the same ER.

So while I do not visit the ER frequently I’m always afraid of it. And the fear - much like women’s fear of rape - serves to shape our choices and occupy a tremendous amount of mental and spiritual energy that could be used for other things.

Kate Bornstein has talked about (as have other MtFs) the dimunition in power and acceptance she experienced as both a transsexual and a woman. When she was asked in an audience Q & A what she liked least about being a woman, she responded, “living with fear.”?

And lastly, I don’t know what IIRC means.
Thanks.

“If I Recall Correctly.” I don’t have my copy of “Gender Outlaw” close at hand.

I realize that there is transphobia to contend with; of course I agree that it’s painful and dangerous and difficult. I’m living under its constraints, too. But it is not quite accurate to say that it’s like living as a woman with a woman’s fear of rape. Very few women ever get to refrain from being publicly female. They don’t get to choose not to share, even with total strangers; their risky selves are right out there in the open. I have to worry if I am exposed; they have to worry everywhere, always. As a transperson, I am able to pass as a non-transperson. It’s important to distinguish my circumstances from those of someone who doesn’t have the option of joining, however temporarily or erroneously, the safe and privileged class–the woman I used to be, for example.

Why do you THINK so many of us end up with men? For a bi woman, even one who “leans queer,” living in the lesbian community is like dating that guy who freaks out every time he even thinks you looked at another guy. Eventually you decide his paranoid shit isn’t worth the pleasure of his company.

Not that I’m pissy about this or anything.

It’s just a first amendment issue.

First Amendment 101, Dave: ‘obscenity’ is not protected by the First Amendment. However, other people’s remarks about your porn are.

Are y’all trying to avoid getting Google’s attention and bringing on the attacks of transphobes who police that event? Because some of those folks post here from time to time already.

That one made me laugh aloud.

In general, people who are members of an oppressed group are more conscious of the fact that their group is oppressed, and therefore more conscious of the need to oppose bigotry against their own group. But that’s not a given for all members of that group in all circumstances. When bigoted ideas are widespread, even members of an oppressed group will accept some of those bigoted ideas without realizing it. No one gets the pure unblemished vision of the truth from outside, because there’s no outside, and being consistent means being radical, which is hard.

So I do think that sexism and homophobia — and transphobia — are closely connected, and I think that many people, especially the direct victims of those forms of oppression, understand that already, but not all of them do, and not all consistently.

Regarding the unnamed festival (are we allowed to use its acronym?): I’d say that this is one case where it’s mostly down to a kind of sexism; the belief is basically that trans women are really men (either by virtue of genetics, or some polemical interpretation of socialisation) and as such aren’t allowed in. The festival supporters’ justification of trans women’s exclusion is basd on a belief in two mutually distinct and incommensurate groups, and as such seems like it’s better explained by sexism- but as that sexism is only really directed at trans women it’s one of the areas where sexism and transphobia cross over in a venn diagramish sort of way so it makes a lot more sense to call it transphobia. In contrast, I don’t think that sexism can adequately explain just how vitriolic the comments on trans people can be- Janice Raymond’s line on how trans women rape all women’s bodies is probably the best example of that- and that sort of area is where transphobia doesn’t really overlap other forms of discrimination.

Homophobia and misogyny are probably linked in a similar fashion to transphobia and sexism; homophobia has a lot to do with misogny, particularly the fear of being feminised, but it’s also motivated by beliefs separate from misogny (disgust being one.) You can go a long way towards explaining homophobia by examining sexism and misogyny, but you can’t go all the way- for example it seems pretty hard to explain the way that a lot of homophobic men react to pictures of men kissing purely by referencing sexism.

In my experience, gay men can be sexist, although are probably slightly less so than straight men. One manifestation of sexism that I have experienced that seems to be unique to gay men though is a kind of phobic reaction to lesbian sexuality. The analagous reaction amongst straight men tends to be a kind of creepy and appropriative perception of lesbian sexuality (girl on girl porn for example,) but oddly the only people I’ve met who seem to have a really genuine thing against lesbians are gay men.

Not so much *A* transperson, as discriminating against transpeople in general. I could bring up a certain contentious woman’s music festival…

(Ahhh, yes _the_ festival….perhaps a post shall appear about that certain festival, which claims to know how to define woman….but we digress.)

For whatever it is worth, theorists and most legal experts agree that sexism as a term does not adequately describe what happens when a person discriminates against a trans person.

Typically two phrases are used, (and legal rulings support this usage, though not exclusively); namely, gender identity and gender expression. However, a judge in Cincinnati ruled that sex could broadly be defined to include gender identity and gender expression. This ruling is causing consternation among trans activists and allies.

So, the certain festival that will not be mentioned is seen as engaging in transphobic behavior within trans communities. We don’t typically say we experience discrimination on the basis of sex; rather, gender identity or gender expression or both. But other trans folks may have different experiences.

What interests me is how discrimination because of gender identity and gender expression intersects with homophobia and misogyny..or not.

Thanks.

I don’t know if you mean a lesbian disliking a trans person is a form of sexism?

Not so much *A* transperson, as discriminating against transpeople in general. I could bring up a certain contentious woman’s music festival…

While I want to believe all of us, including myself, who say that sexism is generally less prevalent among gay men, I personally want to acknowledge the potential for unacknowledged male priviledge at work when I, or another man (gay or straight), makes such a statement.

I agree there. The experience of women in dealing with gay men would be far more convincing, but I can only report directly on what I’ve seen and heard.

But I do know at least two dozen lesbians and bi women who deplore the rampant sexism in gay and female to male transsexual communities (why not call everyone out!).

The FtM trans community is rather small, from what I know of it. The one researcher I know of in the field never mentioned sexism there, but again, if someone reports it exists, I’m not going to disagree.

It also occuured to me that I might not be seeing it because I’m male, and so it’s not directed at me. But my lesbian and bi female friends don’t report much on it either, and they do compliain about sexism fairly regularly.

It’s true that gender privilege is contextual. Privilege is an interpersonal disparity, and therefore entirely dependent on the company in which one finds oneself. Most of the time, however, we’re in communities that privilege men and discriminate against women. Even in queer space, masculinity is frequently privileged and femininity or femaleness humiliated.

Agreed. 100%

And most of the time, my birth gender is not a factor in how I’m treated. I hardly ever visit the ER

My birth gender is not a factor in how I’m treated, until I share with others about my life. And then the field is wide open!

But the threat - threats are part and parcel of oppression - is there nonetheless. I was in the ER last year. And I was terrified for a time. Another trans acquaintance was harassed twice in the same ER.

So while I do not visit the ER frequently I’m always afraid of it. And the fear - much like women’s fear of rape - serves to shape our choices and occupy a tremendous amount of mental and spiritual energy that could be used for other things.

Kate Bornstein has talked about (as have other MtFs) the dimunition in power and acceptance she experienced as both a transsexual and a woman. When she was asked in an audience Q & A what she liked least about being a woman, she responded, “living with fear.”

And lastly, I don’t know what IIRC means.
Thanks.