Sure you can!

What gets me is when bisexuals highlight “both” rather than “either”. Can you be satisfied with either? If you can, how then can it honestly be a sacrifice when you’re asked to pick one? People suppress negligible things about themselves all the time for various reasons. And if you can’t be satisfied with just one, why then are you surprised when gays and lesbians are not receptive of this? I agree with Sarah’s initial sentiments - it’s definitely disconcerting when the man or woman you’re in a relationship with (or intending to be with) has the capacity to be attracted to a gender that is not the one you belong to. You want to believe that everything about you is the SOLE reason for your partners happiness. Beyond that, it should be a known fact that sexuality is very much politicized, thus it’s not always simply an issue of attraction, but of alliance. Due to heterosexism (what bisexuals ought) to be chafing at, being gay in this society has become about more than just being passionate about other same-sex members of complementary sexuality, it also means reinforcing an un-openness to heterosexual romance (an occasional sex only fling may be another matter) in oneself - a romance that is glamorized everywhere, while homosexual love is ridiculed. I tend to think that causes more of a stir than just same-sex animal lust. Having said all that, it seems to me that bisexuals, before charging “biphobia” and dissatisfaction with “discrimination” by gays and lesbians, they might want to consider whether they really understand the situation of gays and lesbians. I’m increasingly of the opinion that bisexuals should just form their own distinct community, date each other, etc.. That’ll avoid some conflicts, imo.

I do like that it ended on a note of “bi’s aren’t either or, they are both”: one who eats meat and veg isn’t either a confused carnivore or a fake vegetarian, but most likely omnivore by nature. And even an omnivore who choses to eat vegetarian when with a vegetarian partner (it certainly happens if you want them to eat your homecooking) is still an omnivore. We think nothing of liking rock and classical music, why not like men and women.

The wierd thing is these arbitrary categories of “she is with men” or “she is with women”. If we were in another culture, it might be “she is with a catholic, she is with a protestant, she has left her religion, she has come back into the fold, she is married to a protestant but still is a practicing catholic” etc. Or how about when the term “n**ger-lover” was around? When race was so huge, you were labelled if you stepped outside your race, most esp if you trangressed by not choosing the privileged white group and dated black. If you dated white after that, or married white, were you suddenly “back to white”, as if you betrayed the black people you had dated? And how about if your previous most important partner were black… would you be a compatible partner for the greater “I’d never date a black ewww” white people?

I am bisexual. I have had longer partnered relationships with women than with men. At various points, lesbians, and my women exes, could say, as one commenter above does, “she went back to men”. Well, all the men could also say “she went back to women”. Because somehow we count it as if they were not individuals you shared a sense of humour with, or life goals, but as members of some monolithic group. How bout “she went back to academics”?

Personally, most men, despite this societal privilege (which as one commenter thankfully pointed out is often oppression for women… people expect him to talk not you, him to be the big wageearner, think your interests are “women’s issues”) are not attractive to me for their sexism. In my personal life, I just find this intolerable at most times, as a feminist. And then add the large chunk who are religious (I am not), who want a nice sweet rather conservative wife (not not not), and I end up not feeling very “privileged” to be with them. Access to his life insurance starts to pale next to being stifled by an “average guy”.

But when I am with a man, I also want someone who is queer positive, who is not going to put my friends down, who will validate my lesbian music choices, fight for my political interests as a queer, etc.

So, where is this huge “oh she’ll leave me for a man” thing. I got into the lesbian community cuz I found it had strong, independent women like myself. I was a person, not a “girl”, I was equal. I am more likely to cleave to the dyke community as I get the privilege of being majority status, vs the large straight community where any woman is minority. If I go out with a man, it is because I am personally compatible with him, and he makes me hot.

And if I go out with a woman, it is because I am personally compatible with him and she makes me hot.

And there are so few of either in the world, it is depressing when they are further reduced by biphobia. I don’t leave people for “men” or for “women”, I leave because it didn’t work out. And if you mistrust me out of fear, it will not work out.

Another thing (yeah, I’m longwinded, but also have just read 122 comments), I DO end up dating more or whichever depending on the availability. If I am hanging with mostly dykes, and going to dyke bars and parties and bbqs in dyke’s houses, I am likely to meet and become intimate with a woman. Very few eligible men present. If I hang with the general public, I am more likely to meet straight women, straight men, a few gay men, a few dykes and even fewer bis and trans. And it is more likely that I will meet and become intimate with a guy who fulfils my criteria of compatibility, than a dyke. If there are three dykes I meet in the park, and one is a christian churchgoer, one won’t date bisexuals and the last is a republican, or just doesn’t like my smile, and I end up dating a man instead (out of the several hundred straight ones in the park), I haven’t gone back to men, or prefer men. The stats are just not there to facilitate meeting like. (note, that biphobia in the lesbian community DOES further push bi women into the greater community, where they will less likely meet another compatible woman… and even if they do happen to meet, they may never know it, as in a dyke community, you can pretty much assume that the girl smiling and twinkling at you is a dyke, whereas in the greater community, neither of you might be willing to chance admitting attraction to the other)

One thing no one has mentioned, after a bad breakup with someone I loved and adored, I am MORE LIKELY to date the opposite gender to them next, as it seems less like a betrayal, like a replacement. It is easier to not cry all night about girl x when you are confronted by a male body and personailty, and it is easier to forget boy y if you’re holding hands with a cute girl in a lesbian bar.

Finally, myself I am more likely to assert being bisexual in a straight group, as I am less likely to want to be taken for “one of them”. To have my ‘differentness” not be invisible. I think this is analogous to someone mixed who is more likely to see themselves as black in a white setting, but not make a big deal about their white parentage if in a black setting. I know quite a few of “ex-bi”s who identify as lesbians now that they have settled down with women. They don’t feel a need to validate their “het past behaviour”. I feel angry and invisible if my “lesbian past behaviour” is assumed to be nonexistent or not taken seriously as it was lived. So I think there IS some validity to what someone said, that bis may “hang up their label” more easily in the samesex community. One normally feels the need to emphasize that which is not assumed, not the privileged standard, esp when not in the subgroup. And one normally does NOT want to emphasise the privileged standard when one is living in the subgroup. As, we can see here, it can put your membership there in question, when it is your actual safe haven.

Anyways, thanks for a great post, and all the great discussion. And hey, I have a few comics on my site about LUGs and biphobia etc, not just in my Crotte collection. cheers

Sure you can!

And I personally do not like attaching labels of my own making to other people. If someone says, “I’m gay,” or, “I’m bi,” or whatever, that’s great!

If some woman I know *seems* straight but makes out with other women at parties, I say well lucky her! I do not try to find a label for her. The only one I’ll use is the name she prefers to be called by.

If a guy I know makes out with other men at parties, and says he’s bi, and other folks just can’t believe it / won’t accept it, well that their problem. To me, he’s “Greg” and that’s it. If he wants to come to my clubhouse meetings, cool, but if he does not, that’s cool, too.

As for the thought that bis “damage” the quest for same-sex marriage in that it brings in the poly argument, I say “damage” is a quaint concept. As surely as western societies will see same-sex marriage in my lifetime (yep, already happening), we shall some day see poly marriages, too. That is cool as well. The more love the better.

Does anyone read Heinlein? The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

So to sum - as an L in the LGBT community who has certainly had mad crushes on men but no action in them, I respect all 4 letters. I choose not to challenge someone’s self-definition regardless of that person’s behavior - not my business, not my concern, not my decision. I choose not to accept the bizarre notion that bis will hurt SSM concerns. And if bis, lesbians, gays, trans, straights want poly marriages, I support that too!

Thanks.

I’ve known I was bisexual since early puberty, but I’ve mostly been in long-term closed relationships with men. I think this will probably continue, or I hope it does, as I really like the person I’m currently with.

I get the whole not liking “fake bisexuals” etc, and think girl bisex to get attention from guys or vice versa is degrading to queers, women and probably men, too.

But, my problem is that though I appear to all observers to be het and live essentially a heterosexual lifestyle, running around calling myself “straight” feels wrong (since I’m not) and strikes me as reinforcing heternormativity.

I’d prefer it if the category “straight” didn’t exist at all.

i recognize that i have enjoyed a great deal of privilege my entire life by being able to function in the hetero world. however, i feel trapped in my relationship. not because i want to go date men, i don’t. i’m happy in my marriage. but i don’t feel that i can discuss my sexuality frankly with my wife, and therefore, cannot completely be myself. and now, after reading this thread, i’m also aware that homosexuals will not likely accept me.

yes, there is privilege. but i also feel very isolated.

/fannish promotion of favourite cartoonist

However, my problem lies explicitly with the ‘new fad of fake bisexuals and lesbians.’

It’s not a new fad, sadly.

It is extremely difficult catching flack from both the het world and the gay community. I didn’t decide to be attracted to both sexes, it is just the way I was made. I have a very good friend that is also an out bisexual and he hears the same kind of comments.

Mythago, you are right there’s a difference in a lesbian telling me “thanks but I only date lesbians” and “I don’t date bi’s because they’re all (insert stereotype here)”.

PS Just in case it’s not clear, I do not mean fit together in a sexual way. I just re-read that and realised how open to misinterpretation it was.

I mean, look at this: every time I have been involved with a bi woman, she has indeed gone back to men. Do you mean that every bisexual woman you have dated has then said “sorry, I’m going to be straight now that I broke up with you”? Or is it that her next partner was a man, and so you assume she’s decided henceforth never to be interested in any woman?

I don’t blame you for wanting to avoid hurt. Though I would note the old saying ‘the only common factor in all your failed relationships is you’–NOT to say that your exes’ actions were your fault, but perhaps it’s a good idea to take a hard look at the women you choose. I’m sure you (as well as I) know lesbians who go after unavailable women, or just-come-out political lesbians who aren’t sure about this whole dyke thing yet, or…or… and get their hearts stomped on AGAIN.

In the long run, is it any different from not dating, say, a single parent with five kids simply because you don’t dig family life?

Yes. Kids are a whole separate obligation and a huge responsibility.

There are lesbians who are uncomfortable dating women who are not immersed in the lesbian community–they don’t want to date a woman who is not self-identified as lesbian, or at least ‘queer,’ and who doesn’t live what they perceive as an exclusively lesbian-oriented way of being. And I get that.

What doesn’t grok is saying “…because they’re all alike.”

I want to thank you all for what may be the most reasoned discussion of biphobia I’ve ever read — even if not all the previous commenters think every comment was “reasoned.” :)

I’ve read every word posted so far, and while fascinated, I am sorry (but not too surprised) to find one more thought left unexpressed: What do you all make of genuine hostility expressed by bisexual women toward (true Kinsey 6) lesbians who refuse to date them?

Don’t answer yet — allow me to explain. I’m that Kinsey 6 who thinks bisexuality as a concept is a fine idea, and who enjoys the company of anyone (straight, bi, I don’t care) — but who simply will not get involved romantically or sexually with bisexual women, based solely on my own past experience.

In short, A) every time I have been involved with a bi woman, she has indeed gone back to men (whether or not we were still together or separated), and B) as Sarah said, it does indeed “hurt more when you get left for a guy than if you get left for a woman.”

There is much more I could add to “my experience,” but I’ll stop there. The end result is that I don’t want a relationship with a self-identified bisexual. (And I don’t do “no-strings” sex.)

Granted, I recognize it is entirely unfair of me not to give someone a “chance,” regardless of her sexual identity — and I do recognize this as a form of biphobia — but it’s _my_ preference. In the long run, is it any different from not dating, say, a single parent with five kids simply because you don’t dig family life?

I also recognize that ANY rejection hurts — but I’m a bit mystified as to why my past rejection (which is as gentle as I can make it, having been on the losing end of unrequited interest myself, countless times) of bi women seems to carry some sort of extra sting. It almost feels as if, because I’m a lesbian, I am _expected_ to respond to any other woman without question. (A ridiculous notion, but I’m truly at a loss here.)

I respect bisexuality, but I cannot relate to it at all — and relationships are hard enough when you DO understand each other.

Am I alone in my experience as a lesbian who has faced a surprising amount of anger from bisexual women when I’ve said, “Thank you, I’m flattered, but I only date lesbians”?

It seems to me that this is no worse than telling a straight man the same thing (i.e., “Thank you, I’m flattered, but I’m a lesbian and I don’t date men”) — or a straight woman turning me down with “Thanks, but no — I’m straight.”

Just curious as to what you all think.

Thanks again for one of the most interesting, thoughtful discussions I’ve ever read on the subject.

oooo, I might just have to take you up on the sushi/sake offer … now I just need to get out to NYC (wah, I miss the ocean … and hills!).

And you’re welcome … and I’m still working on the whole thinking before I speak thing too …

But your mother is perfectly correct about racism in this country … despite being so white it’s a wonder I am not transparent, I’m not an american, and I am constantly amazed at the ability of this country to be blind to how race operates here (not that I am perfect at it either mind you). I think to a certain extent it takes looking from outside to actually see your own behaviour. Trust me, the biphobia in the lesbian community is very easy to fall into and not see as well. Often it takes stepping back a bit to do so, and sometimes you need help to do that.

i’m soooooo glad you said something. even just to say - thinking about it. maybe especially to say that, cause i was feeling that although we’ve all been talking about it, it’s still not an issue people are owning and therefore, dealing with on a personal level. you made my day.

(one of these days i’ll learn to think before i speak more. as you can see, i’m constantly yanking foot out of one orifice or another. arm tired, orifices sore.)

an appro po quote from my mom in response to my bewilderment at the level of blindness to rascism in this country.

me: they just don’t get it mom.
mom: of course they don’t get it. if they did, they’d have to do something about it.

Hon, I figure I’m one of the lesbians posting here you are mentioning *smile* You’re right, I’m not posting not because I don’t think I should do some processing, but rather because I am processing.

I don’t tend to annouce stuff like this till I’ve thought it through. As I said above, I know I’ve got biphobia, but I’m working on dealing with it, just that I was unsure how. Just because I haven’t posted my incoherent ramblings of my processing (which they seriously would be at this point) doesn’t mean I’m not doing the processing.

I’ve got no probs admitting when I don’t know something, like I did above. My silence is generally me sititng back and thinking about things (used to drive one ex gf of mine nuts) and while it can be a bad thing at times it also stops me putting my foot in my mouth with too much frequency.

Although, damn, wish you could pop up to Chicago and share some of that sake … bugger, now I have sushi craving …