Here it is once again. The age-old-battle on the fairness of Child support. Let me begin this discussion by first stating that I pay Child support for my children that don’t live in my household and I have children living in my household who get an insufficient amount of support in one situation and no support at all in another case.
Because of my situation and my personal intimate experience in this matter I can therefore speak on this subject with passion, honesty and truth.

There are many different types of situations and circumstances out there that lead us to the point of where we are now paying Child Support. I don’t know everyone’s circumstances but I do know that God intended sex and sexual relationships for the sanctity of marriage. Marriage was created by God and is purposed to be a righteous, Godly institution between a man and a woman. Whenever things are done out of the scope, parameters and purpose in which they were designed there are always consequences.

So let’s get right too it. The payment of child support from one parent to another is first of all a consequence. It is a consequence of either sexual irresponsibility, or for being involved in relationships that were either not in Gods will or those relationships and the situations therein where handled in a manner that is displeasing to God.
At one time I had one Job and something like 37% to 40% of my income was going to the mother of my children for support. That time was very difficult for me financially. I suffered and struggled in many areas because of the child support consequence and at that time I was very bitter and angry at the kids’ mother for putting me in that situation but then God had to show me; if it is hurting me this much to try to survive without that percentage of my income then how difficult must it be for her trying to support the children on that percentage of my income? I also had to realize that she didn’t put me in this situation but in my case, my conduct in the relationship we had is what put me in this situation.
Since then I have been blessed by God with a second job so one Job can handle the support for my Children who I love and I want to support, and the other can give me the ability to do what I need to do for my life in my household. I still struggle financially but that is not due to the Child support or because of the children’s mother but do to other circumstances of life. And I am also blessed because the Mother of my children and her husband are of good Christian character so she gets what the child support system has ordered and she does not hound me, or berate me for anything more than that…and if she or the children did ask for something I would do all I can to assist because they are my kids and my responsibility and I love them. When it comes to the mother of your children brethren; in most cases she is not getting support from you to be mean, or harmful. My brethren she is getting support from you because she needs it, besides, it is your duty and even if she doesn’t need it and even if she is doing it to be mean and spiteful the children still have needs; regardless to how trifling the mother may be. In my situation after some major issues between the families I can say thanks be to Good that we all get along very well now.

I’m not saying we agree on everything but what I am saying is that we have all learned to be kind, respectful, and considerate to one another. The Mother of my children is not my enemy and even if she and I were at odds with one another or even enemies, I would still want and need her to be successful in her life because she has the awesome task and responsibility of developing my children in to healthy, happy and independent individuals. She can only do this if her life is sustainable.
When a person comes to the realization that the intention of God is for man and woman to be married and have children and be together for their entire lives to love and raise those children together; and compare that plan to our current situations and circumstances, then we will be better able to see that our society suffers from deep rooted strongholds that have corrupted the family unit and given power to the worldliness and wickedness that plagues our lives.
Child support is a consequence! In my case Child support is a consequence for not having a relationship with God before I got married so when the time for marriage came around I didn’t understand anything about it. Had I been close to God and obedient to Gods will I would have known what to do and what not to do. Also, If had a Godly example {a father,} I would have been better equipped to operate properly in marriage. God knows I was not good to the mother of my children and my current situation is a consequence for my ungodly behavior in marriage; and even though it is many years’ later, consequences can go on for an unknown length of time.
I don’t need to list the things I did wrong or place any blame on the children’s mother. The only thing that gets me threw my suffering is taking responsibility for what I did improperly in my relationship with her, and being sure that I never repeat those behaviors again and doing my part in the Godly rearing of my children. Anything else is non productive and useless.
Now let’s get to the heart of the issue. For all the guys that think, feel, and believe that they should go out and buy the groceries, the clothes, and whatever else the children need and drop it off at the kids house as not to give the mother any cash and to insure that the money is being used properly on the children….I’ll start with you.
This philosophy is understandable but wrong. It’s wrong because child support is just that support, it is to assist the mother with the needs and rearing of the children. If the mother needs something that helps her to be better able to properly take care of the children then so be it.
Do your part and don’t stress about what she does with the money because honestly, once it left your hands {or your check} it was no longer yours anyway.
I can be real can’t I? This anit for the weak brothers because truth hurts so if you can’t handle the truth then don’t read on.
My brothers lets be mature and real about this. Neither you nor the court system can control who the children’s mother is laying up with, how she spends her money and what she does in her house hold whether it be right or wrong. Don’t get me wrong, the custodial parent can and should be held to a certain level of accountability for the care of the children but that does not mean you can pick their friends or their behavior. And the bottom line is whether you like this reality or not, it is what it is.
For any of you that want to make the argument of abuse or neglect then do something about it….Something other than arguing with her over the phone, calling her out of her name and beating up her boyfriends.
Do something real and legal….If there is some form of neglect/abuse their will defiantly be signs of it. So, build a case. Get a camera and take pictures for proof of the abuse you’re seeing. A video cam would be even better. Get witness like teachers and other people that come in close contact with the children. Try to have witness beyond your girlfriend/wife and people from your inner circle that also can’t stand your children’s mother.
Get a lawyer if you can but if not a strong articulate argument, backed by some creditable witnesses {not your cousin pookie and them from off the block} solid proof, like pictures will sure get the Judges attention and you can win custody……
Oh that’s right. The point of doing all this is to get your children out of harm’s way and to care for them properly YOURSELF! Let me say that again….Yourself! not your mother, or your sister, or that old lady down the street that watches all those children….Don’t get me wrong everyone needs a support system but your support system should be just that; support, not someone else raising the children …That will become your job when you prove this horrible neglect that your claiming.
Then you can worry about who will keep the kids when you have to work, and you can work and cook and clean and do laundry and help with home work and still try to find time for love and other relationships and you can feed the fevers and starve the colds and have the long talks and give the spankings and the hugs and all that fun stuff that the mom was/should have been doing that you claimed she wasn’t doing. Then you can watch the same movies over and over and over again with the children 3 times in a row and you can answer all the why why why’s about everything under the sun and then when the child is crying for mommy and asking you where she is and when is she coming you can look into their eyes and see the hurt and pain that the mom had to see when she had them and they were asking her about you….AND THEN YOU CAN DO IT ALL OVER AGIN THE NEXT DAY and EVERYDAY!
Let me say this….these are just some of the things the custodial parent should have been doing and if she/he wasn’t doing them then they need to lose custody.
There are a million more things that mothers do that I can’t even list or begin to comprehend because I am not a mother and I cannot do what a mother does{I’m a witness as I watched my mother and now I watch my wife}So before you rip a child away from its mother consider these things….
Is there really abuse/neglect or does she {and her man} just do things differently than you would? Is there really abuse/neglect or are you just hurt, bitter, angry, upset, jealous or all of the above? Hold the mother accountable only after you have become responsible!
Now we get to the gift givers. These are the guys that buy their kids really nice clothes and expensive sneakers…Video games cell phones and so forth but don’t spend any quality time and their gifts are less then effective in the lives of the children because PUBLIC SERVICE GAS AND ELECTRIC DON’T EXCEPT NIKE, PHAT PHARM OR HOUSE OF DEREON. And the landlord of the home your children live in only gets really upset when he sees all these nice sneakers and coats but mom is late with the rent over and over again. And when dinner time comes kids can’t eat that psp2 the cell phones or the jewelry you brought them. These guys make me laugh. You wanna show how Hard you are and how much of a man you are then do the hard work of continuous, support in the proper raising of your children…that’s Hard, and that alone will show what kind of man you are.
Child support is for assistance with rent, utilities, food and healthcare, do I need to go further….I think I do because some people just do know what it really takes. So, after rent, utilities, food and healthcare, then their is toilet tissue, and cough medicine, and hair products, and toiletries and feminine hygiene needs and the list goes on and on and on… But wait, there’s more. That’s right, the money isn’t enough. If you pick the kids up and drop them off at the park or the mall or grandma’s house, how will your sons know what a good man is suppose to do in life’s situations and circumstances? And if you don’t spend time with your little girls how they will know what a good Husband and Father should be like? How will you explain to your Girls that ladies are treated as ladies and whatever else they act like is also how they will be treated…. {You fill in your own blanks.}——- will be treated like …. You get the picture
Being Godly, decent, kind, loving and understanding, honest and hardworking, and responsible are all learned behaviors. But how will they learn these things if their father doesn’t show them?
They won’t!!! And many don’t, and that’s why we have so many young boys in the youth houses and in the prison systems… Or dead by 19; because there just aren’t enough Godly father figures being an example. I did say there aren’t enough fathers; I said there aren’t enough Godly father figures being an example. Mothers do teach children, but the mother’s purpose and abilities are different then the fathers, both parents play a vital but different role in the lives of the children. These things will only be developed in the lives of the children as time is spent with the children. I teach my girls what a husband and father is by the way I treat my Wife and the way I live my life and even by the way try to I properly deal with my ex-wife
I know things get hectic, have work, and I dedicate a lot of time to reading and studying the word of God, I have an Awesome wife that I need to and love to spend time with but when my Children who don’t live in my house hold are there, I put aside my video game addiction and I sacrifice other things that I would probably be doing {like watching the game} and I sing with my daughter who’s a singer, {even though I can’t sing} I play video games with my son and I wrestle with him pretty much every time I walk past him. I talk and talk and talk with my 10 yr old daughter because…well she’s a talker… and my eldest {that doesn’t live in my home} well she’s in that I’m to cool to play around with daddy stage right now but out of all of my children it was her that I invested the most in as she was my first child she was the one who showed me the delicateness of children, and it was her that thought me that once you have kids nothing you have is just yours anymore but that’s ok and the sacrifice is well worth it. She showed me how my play and my discipline made a difference in her life and how all of my behaviors impact my children. {And she is a step child} So she and I are well established and I will always continue to make deposits in her soul that will continually replenish what her and I have and will always have.
Why do I do those things…because I must….because I want to… because they need me to, and because If I don’t give them love, affection, attention and proper teaching someone else will, and I fear that; that someone else will be just like I was before I was in Christ. Or what if he’s a Pimp or something like that.
No!!!!
God forbid my Girls run into a guy whose anything like I was and they be needy for love and affection…so I’ll just continue do all I can to make sure that my children have all they need, mentally, emotionally and spiritually from me {to the best of my ability}
Now there are also those fathers that really just don’t care about the children and you have mothers who do spend the support money on themselves only and do anything for the children .To these people I say you will be cursed with a curse of God if you intentionally abuse/neglect a child.
Children are the wonderful living joy of love and relationships, yet remember; to whom much is given much is required. Keep in mind that God intended Children to be a blessing given by him to mankind through the agency of love and marriage and neither by mishap nor by byproduct of passion and lust. Although these things happen all the time it is not Gods plan and these sorts of behaviors are what make the difference in the life of a child.
So I say it again child support can be a financial burden yet it is a consequence for sexual irresponsibility, and/or involving one’s self in relationships that are displeasing to God or for not behaving properly in marriage and intimate relationships, and that’s not something I heard….I’m telling you what I know!!!!!
Mothers if you are out there and you know that the father is being afflicted with an incorrect amount of Child Support or an unfair situation and you can do something about it and you don’t; just remember God is watching you and there are consequences for all ungodly behavior….And what does it benefit you or the child if he goes to jail or if he can’t keep a roof over his head.
Don’t get me wrong if he just flat out won’t support his children then by all means; lock his behind up! But if we are talking about a man that loves his children by word, deed, and thought then be supportive and understanding. The better he can do for his life the better he can do for his children.
On the flip side fathers; if the mother can’t get to work or she starving how does that help your child.
Children cannot flourish when they know that their mother is perishing
Keep in mind Mothers…The father is suppose to support; that is to do his part in the rearing of the children…not to do it all but his part.
Fathers if you are reading this and you’re one of those…
I anit doing nothing for the children because I can’t stand the mother type of dudes, Get over your feelings and Man up!!! This aint about you; this is about that child that needs to be supported financially, emotionally and physically! If you’re not with the mother any more then what she does and who she does it with is none of your concern and if it is then your priorities are screwed up and you haven’t let her go in your heart and/or your mind!!! Like I said your should be concerned about the safety and welfare of your children and if that’s the case then refusing to support the child is not in any way going to force the mother to be a better mother .
We must come to realize that being a good parent and doing what’s best for one’s children is a choice. It’s decision that people make and then act on. If a person is selfish, greedy and not willing to make many difficult personal sacrifices then that is just their character and nothing you do or the courts can do. Now the courts can’t force them to be a better parent. Even though they can be forced to do certain things by the courts that the child needs, that still won’t make them loving and supportive. So refusing to support the child is also neglect and anyone who refuses to support their children financially, emotionally and physically is also guilty of neglect which is a form of abuse.
In closing I want to say that I know there are many brothers out there who are working hard and struggling to survive and the child support is kicking them in the Butt.
I know there are men who are custodial parents out there and the shoe is on the other foot and I know there are mothers out there with kids that get no support from the Children’s father and in some cases he has plenty of money and even time but he does nothing. I know there are mothers out there that are getting support but the children look like they don’t have any parents and the mother looks like a million bucks.
If you are a parent and find you self in anyone of these situations here’s what you do.
Pray.
Pray that Gods will be done in your life the life of the other parent and the lives of your children.
Build your case legally and legitimately if you have one. {Don’t lie in court and don’t get false witnesses.}
Keep praying.
Keep doing your part, and when you do have them for long periods or short periods of time, love them, teach them, laugh with them, and play with them.
All the while praying.
Try to communicate properly with the other parent and if you cannot {whether it be your fault or their fault} then communicate through letters {keep a copy.}In a letter you can say everything you want without benign cut off and you will have proof of what you said but so does the other person. Other people can work too as a go between but only if there is no bias for either side.
What worked for my situation when I was in transitions of a broken relationship and then beginning a new relationship was being part of a Bible believing church where we have deacons and a Pastor who could counsel and mediate based on the word of truth, and also having a person{s}{I’m talking about the mother of my children and her husband} who have a heart for God and a heart for the children also made it workable, livable and now comfortable. But that took time. For a long time it was stressful, painful and seemed impossible to get pass the many obstacles.
But God makes a way for all those who believe and are willing to do the hard work.
Remember family, you can always chose what you do in life but you can never chose the consequences or the length there of.
So for all of those who suffer the CONSEQUENCE OF CHILD SUPPORT I will live you with a scripture and a prayer.
Respectfully and Lovingly
James W. Caldwell Jr.

Philippians 3 (New Living Translation)
12 I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me. 13 No, dear brothers and sisters, I have not achieved it,[d] but I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on to reach the end of the race and receive the heavenly prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us.
Let’s Pray…
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Amen….

If you want to see your kids why do you not do that before they are taken away!!!

Grow up!!!!

See, if you try that, those ebil gold-digging bitches will declare themselves to be trans men solely for the purposes of getting their hands on your sperm…

I introduce to you John Murtari…a man fighting unrealistic child support payments and the inability to afford to travel to the other side of the country.

John is now in prison….on a hunger strike….and is protesting the way the NYS Family Court Operates….I too was a victim of the cruel and inhumane NYS Family Court System…..denied a handicapped van and a child was allowed to go to FL…..my severe disabilities prevent me from traveling there. So this child will never see his father….unless when he is a man and wants to look for me.

Here is a Family Court System that one can expect if they have to appear before it for any reason….planned or unplanned pregnancy….as in my case…a woman told me and showed me she was on the birth control pill….said DO NOT use the condoms I had in my hand….as she didn’t like them. I was set up….and in so doing…the family court doesn’t care if you have children living with you…..whom you support…and the support payments coupled with child care payments are so high you are going to lose your home where your two children grew up and have many close friends and family members. See….they Family Court only cares about the child that is subject to the court…..not any other child. And they were both told to forgo religious education so I can support this child that was born out of deceit. The NYS Family Court System is broken and needs to be addressed. Problem is the politicians have chose to close their eyes.

http://www.akidsright.org/support_jm.htm

Actually, “have sex only with people of the same gender as you” also works 100%. Funnily, while I’ve suggested this to MRAs many times, I’ve never gotten much positive response.

The thing is, the only contraception that is 100% is “keep it in your pants”. While I understand and agree with the argument that biological considerations should weigh the choice scale more heavily toward the woman’s side, I think that the legal considerations are still weighted toward the man. That is, because our legal system uses precedent so much, and because the older laws treated women and children as property of the man, we still have the vestiges of this ownership concept in dealing with child support, plus we still have a lot of the pre-contraception and pre-legal-abortion approach in framing the relationship between the mother and the father of a child. Hence, the man is required to “own up” to the child being “his” and pay for the upkeep of “his” child, even if he did his part to signal that he didn’t want a child, because in the olden days, the woman didn’t have much (if any) choice in whether or not to have sex, she didn’t have any contraception available, and she couldn’t legally abort, so a baby was literally considered “all the man’s fault”. So I’m wondering if the C4Mers do have a little tiny point in that if a man has done his best to prevent his sperm from meeting his partner’s egg (short of abstaining from sex completely, which we agree is unrealistic), and that both the man and the woman agree that he has made it clear that he doesn’t want a child, that there should be a legal way for the man to “un-father” himself?

The state can do that now. Child support and visitation are not reciprocal obligations. If your ex decided he wants to be Daddy after all, he is not barred by the fact that you did not enforce child support.

But here, I’ll bite: From now on, when I say “sex” in this thread, that’s what I mean. In fact, unless the context suggests otherwise, that’s what I mean in pretty much every thread. And I think this is reasonably common.

I think you misunderstood me or, more probably, I wasn’t being clear. My point about heterosexual rhetoric was not directed at you or the way you said what you said. My point was that insisting that male reproductive choice, C4M, ends once ejaculation inside a woman takes place is a way of engaging the whole question of the relationship between heterosexual vaginal intercourse and reproductive choice, because a very big chunk of how people on all sides of the issue approach reproductive choice, even the conventional, child-support-oriented C4M position, is predicated on a particular understanding of the place and importance of heterosexual vaginal intercourse in heterosexual relationships.

And this is also why I don’t think redirecting the idea of what male reproductive choice means towards an engagement with the specifics of the male body, rather than the question of child support, is not sidetracking. The question of who is/should be responsible for supporting a child once he or she has been born is very much connected to the question of heteronormativity and what sex means.

I guess what I am saying, in part, is that the whole C4M position when it comes to the question of child support is in itself a distraction, a way of not having to look at what it would really mean for men to live within the limitations of our own bodies.

One person supports the creation of a child through five seconds of ejaculation and the other person supports the creation of a child through nine months of gestation. The ensuing child is made up to equal parts of the two peolpe. All children have the right to an upbringing and financial support from its progenitors.

Jealousy between the progenitors that one had an easier part in the making of the child or that the other had longer time to think about their part in the creation does not relate to the child’s right to support and upbringing.

Richard Jeffrey Newman Writes:
1. There is a difference between phrasing the position in a negative way as you have done here—”men who don’t want to support shouldn’t…”—and phrasing the position in a positive way, i.e., avoiding heterosexual vaginal intercourse is an expression of male reproductive choice/autonomy.

There’s not a difference to me ;) I think you’re arguing semantics to a point where you’re forgetting the actual topic.

Yes, anything can be flipped as an exercise in semantics. But the main effect is restrictive. Representing choice which can only be exercised through abstaining from a generally-practiced activity as a “choice” like any other is technically true but realistically silly. Just like “a woman who avoids an abortion through abstinence is expressing her reproductive autonomy” is technically true but realistically silly.

…Second, I think taking this position is way of questioning the heterosexual rhetoric that underlies the whole C4M and abortion debate….

This is simply efficiency. Do you honestly expect everyone to preface every statement about “sex” with an explantation that “by which I mean heterosexual sex between a man and a woman, not including rape or other involuntary sexual acts, where both partners are fertile or at least believe themelves to be possibly fertile, and which involves either vaginal intercourse or some other activity that may realistically result in the woman becoming pregnant?”

If you were someone else, i’d think you were trolling. But here, I’ll bite: From now on, when I say “sex” in this thread, that’s what I mean. In fact, unless the context suggests otherwise, that’s what I mean in pretty much every thread. And I think this is reasonably common.

And I also think you’re deliberately side tracking. If you want to have a whole discussion about what “sex” really is/should be and what “sex” can mean, and the evils of heteronormativity, go right ahead (in a different thread, please). But come on–this is a thread about child support and c4m and other related issues, and in THIS CONTEXT I think it’s pretty damn obvious what people mean when they are talking about ’sex’. Don’t you think?

As a result, I reject the “men who don’t want to support should just avoid vaginal sex” argument. Sure, it works physically. But it’s too much risk to the prochoice fight. And it’s also not especially realistic.

Two things:

1. There is a difference between phrasing the position in a negative way as you have done here—”men who don’t want to support shouldn’t…”—and phrasing the position in a positive way, i.e., avoiding heterosexual vaginal intercourse is an expression of male reproductive choice/autonomy. More, the point of taking the position is not to make the pro-choice argument to the anti-abortion side. Rather, it seems to me, the point of taking this position is first, to give men a voice within the pro-choice discussion. It is a way for us to own our own boundaries and the limits of what we can control. Second, I think taking this position is way of questioning the heterosexual rhetoric that underlies the whole C4M and abortion debate. Robert’s assumption that I meant “keep it in your pants” when I said avoid vaginal intercourse is an example of what I am talking about.

2. While I appreciate the pragmatic motive behind the position you’ve taken, the end result of it will be to leave the centrality of vaginal intercourse to the heterosexual imagination unchallenged, which means that the heterosexual rhetoric surrounding the reproductive rights debate, including C4M, will remain unchanged, which means the debate itself will remain unchanged as well.

Ok, now I really do have to go pack.

This is incorrect. AFAIK, nobody has to pay child support for a fetus. So, to parallel your logic, a C4Mer cannot sever his relationship with the child before it is born since, legally, no child exists. A C4Mer is also not required to pay child support before the fetus is born. No responsibility, no obligation at that point, thus no way to sever his responsibilities and obligations since he has none. However, once the child is born it has moral standing (and citizenship) and rights under the law. At that point a C4Mer must pay child support if so ordered and also cannot sever his relationship (from a responsibility and obligations perspective) without agreement from the mother of the child. Not surprisingly, a woman may not sever her relationship with her child (w/o agreement from the father) at this point either.

What you (and C4M) really have problems with is who gets to make the choice and at what point the choice is made whether or not to create a child. Unfortunately for men, biology limits our choice to a pre-coitus time period. Women, biologically speaking, have a choice post-coitus as well. Morally speaking, I agree with biology in this case. Once a man has ejaculated, he experiences no physical consequences of gestation and childbirth. Since a woman is physically affected by gestation and childbirth it seems wholly proper to me that the decision is hers post-coitus as to whether or not to have a child.

One cannot simultaneously argue that conceived children have no moral standing at a point in time, and that a man owes a duty to his conceived child going forward because SOMEDAY it will have moral standing, and that women have no ongoing duty to that conceived child because SOMEDAY it will have moral standing.

Actually, this is not entirely true. In Jewish law, for example, a fetus does have moral standing–you are required to violate the Sabbath in order to save one that would otherwise die–and abortion is not murder. I have written a little bit about this here. More to the point, I have never heard any pro-choice advocate argue that a fetus has no moral standing. What I have heard them argue is that its moral standing is neither equivalent to nor superceding of the moral standing of the woman who carries it.

Beyond that, I think we have to agree to disagree. You want to apply an equivalance that simply does not exist given men’s and woman’s different biologies; I am willing to accept that the points at which men’s reproductive autonomy begins and ends are different from those at which women’s reproductive autonomy begins and ends. I think what I said about “keep it out of a woman’s vagina” addresses that point, and I note that it is a point you have not addressed at all.

I think he is referring to this:

Pretty much any time an abortion argument comes up, some prolifer will make this claim:

“women can avoid all abortions other than those from rape; all they have to do is not have voluntary vaginal intercourse with men. Therefore, there’s no need to allow or permit or encourage availability of abortions for women who were not raped. If they don’t want a pregnancy, they can merely elect not to have sex.”

Of course, this is physically true. No vaginal sex with a man = no potential for pregnancy.

And of course, it’s pretty damn problematic. The usual argument against it, which seems very widespread among feminists, is: although a heterosexual woman can in theory abstain from all vaginal sex unless she is willing to bear a child, this is doesn’t really work in practice. We all like sex too much. From what I have read, it is considered very ANTI-feminist so say “well, she just shouldn’t have sex.”

This is exactly the argument you and I got into a while ago (was it here? I’ve lost track). I think abortion is more important than either side of the C4M argument. So I’m unwilling to give the prolifers a foothold–and a pretty good one, at least in sound bite terms–by admitting that any healthy adult, in any relationship, should be willing and able to refrain from any sex with any chance of procreation.

As a result, I reject the “men who don’t want to support should just avoid vaginal sex” argument. Sure, it works physically. But it’s too much risk to the prochoice fight. And it’s also not especially realistic.

Richard - I largely agree with you regarding the responsibility of parents for their offspring. But at the point in time where the C4M man desires to sever his relationship with the child, advocates for reproductive autonomy and/or abortion believe that no child exists. One cannot simultaneously argue that conceived children have no moral standing at a point in time, and that a man owes a duty to his conceived child going forward because SOMEDAY it will have moral standing, and that women have no ongoing duty to that conceived child because SOMEDAY it will have moral standing. If its future moral standing creates an obligation, then we can’t have abortion. If its future moral standing doesn’t create an obligation, then men can opt out of parenthood, as women can. If it creates an obligation for men but not for women, then feminist claims to be seeking sexual equality and justice are hollow, and pro-choice feminism is simply a cover for female reproductive supremacy. (It should be noted that some feminists recognize this and either say “ok, I’m for female reproductive supremacy”, or “RA does mean that men can abandon their children” - props to them for intellectual honesty.)

If a woman can morally sever her relationship with her offspring at conception+X days, on the grounds that she has reproductive autonomy, and the sexes are to have equal rights, then so can a man. The consistency bind that pro-choice folks are in is that they want to keep reproductive autonomy as an argument in their quiver, because it’s one of the strongest arguments they have. But if you really believe in reproductive autonomy and equality, then you have to apply it to men too, and feminists really don’t want to do that, because it will result in real harm to women’s standing in the world. If you don’t want to extend it to men, then you have to acknowledge that “reproductive autonomy” means women’s reproductive autonomy only - and that in turn puts pressure on claims to believe in equality - “oh, so all that stuff about women and men having the same rights was crap” - which most feminists don’t want to do.

I’m glad that I don’t have to try and balance all of these contradictory claims in my own philosophy; I don’t think I could do it.

But feminists reject the argument categorically as a justification for checks against abortion in cases of consensual sex, and advance a theory of strong reproductive autonomy.

Huh? What feminism are you reading? What you wrote is a bald faced lie, or something you made up. Feminism has criticised and critiqued vaginal intercourse for 40+ years, to include how reproductive autonomy is affected by this particular practice. Many women feel the most autonomous reproductively when they can refuse to engage in vaginal intercourse — despite the high cultural cost of taking such a radical approach to heterosexual sex.