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	<title>Comments on: Quote</title>
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	<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/08/03/quote-3/</link>
	<description>Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 10:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Chana</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/08/03/quote-3/#comment-55089</link>
		<dc:creator>Chana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/08/03/quote-3/#comment-55089</guid>
		<description>Well said, Jane.  Even though I still can't understand why someone would deny a woman birth control, I know the most important thing is that the job gets done, not who does it.

But what about the vegetarian sandwich-maker analogy? When someone wants a turkey sub, should s/he call a co-worker over, or just tough it out?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Jane.  Even though I still can&#8217;t understand why someone would deny a woman birth control, I know the most important thing is that the job gets done, not who does it.</p>
<p>But what about the vegetarian sandwich-maker analogy? When someone wants a turkey sub, should s/he call a co-worker over, or just tough it out?</p>
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		<title>By: jane</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/08/03/quote-3/#comment-55031</link>
		<dc:creator>jane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/08/03/quote-3/#comment-55031</guid>
		<description>have they set standards against refusing to fill presriptions? (i'm actually asking- i don't know.) i would think that depends on the body granting the license, subject to state laws. and i guess it depends on whether filling bc/ec prescriptions is considered a basic function of the job.

but a lot of jobs have exemptions for certain religious beliefs. take the example of teaching- what about a biology teacher that believes in creationism and doesn't want to teach evolution? he could be fired, but he could also be switched from 9th to 8th grade biology, where evolution isn't included in the curriculum, and keep his job.  being a biology teacher doesn't mean one has to teach all of biology. a teacher who didn't want to teach girls over the age of 12 could get a job teaching 2nd grade. i personally wouldn't want to send my kid to someone who thought girls shouldn't be in school, but things like that happen all the time. the person may be barred from teaching high-school, but his/her teaching license probably would not be revoked. the belief might severely limit professional options, but s/he could still be a practicing teacher.

there may be people that really really feel that they want to be  pharmacists to help people, and really feel that bc or ec harms fetuses, against their religious beliefs, and i'm not sure how i feel about forcing them to do that (even if i think their claims are scientifically dubious and misogynistic). i do think it would be ok to force pharmacies to do it, and that would ensure that women who live in rural places could get what they need without having to drive 6 hours to get it. and if a pharmacist who felt that way wanted a job, he or she would have to work somewhere that always had another pharmacist on duty (or be legally compelled to fill whatever prescription came in). you should have a right to get your presription at the pharmacy, but not necessarily from pharmacist A rather than pharmacist B. as long as the pharmacists' (crazy and non-scientifically based) views don't prevent me or any other person from getting the meds/ec/bc we need, what do we care? if you can get an abortion at the hospital, why would you care that the surgeon in the next room over refuses to do them? if your pastor performs your marriage to your same-sex partner, why care that some other pastor wouldn't? maybe you think those people are bigots, but as long as that doesn't harm you or limit your rights, so be it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>have they set standards against refusing to fill presriptions? (i&#8217;m actually asking- i don&#8217;t know.) i would think that depends on the body granting the license, subject to state laws. and i guess it depends on whether filling bc/ec prescriptions is considered a basic function of the job.</p>
<p>but a lot of jobs have exemptions for certain religious beliefs. take the example of teaching- what about a biology teacher that believes in creationism and doesn&#8217;t want to teach evolution? he could be fired, but he could also be switched from 9th to 8th grade biology, where evolution isn&#8217;t included in the curriculum, and keep his job.  being a biology teacher doesn&#8217;t mean one has to teach all of biology. a teacher who didn&#8217;t want to teach girls over the age of 12 could get a job teaching 2nd grade. i personally wouldn&#8217;t want to send my kid to someone who thought girls shouldn&#8217;t be in school, but things like that happen all the time. the person may be barred from teaching high-school, but his/her teaching license probably would not be revoked. the belief might severely limit professional options, but s/he could still be a practicing teacher.</p>
<p>there may be people that really really feel that they want to be  pharmacists to help people, and really feel that bc or ec harms fetuses, against their religious beliefs, and i&#8217;m not sure how i feel about forcing them to do that (even if i think their claims are scientifically dubious and misogynistic). i do think it would be ok to force pharmacies to do it, and that would ensure that women who live in rural places could get what they need without having to drive 6 hours to get it. and if a pharmacist who felt that way wanted a job, he or she would have to work somewhere that always had another pharmacist on duty (or be legally compelled to fill whatever prescription came in). you should have a right to get your presription at the pharmacy, but not necessarily from pharmacist A rather than pharmacist B. as long as the pharmacists&#8217; (crazy and non-scientifically based) views don&#8217;t prevent me or any other person from getting the meds/ec/bc we need, what do we care? if you can get an abortion at the hospital, why would you care that the surgeon in the next room over refuses to do them? if your pastor performs your marriage to your same-sex partner, why care that some other pastor wouldn&#8217;t? maybe you think those people are bigots, but as long as that doesn&#8217;t harm you or limit your rights, so be it.</p>
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		<title>By: djw</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/08/03/quote-3/#comment-54975</link>
		<dc:creator>djw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/08/03/quote-3/#comment-54975</guid>
		<description>Jane--can't the pharmacists set professional standards against such behavior? I believe they have. We all have a right to not be forced to sell or distribute BC pills; we don't have a constitutional right to be certified as a practicing pharmacist.  I'm not sure what problem bioethicists would have with professional requirements that pharmacists do the basic functions of their job without discrimination.

This works fine in other professions. You think women shouldn't be educated outside the home past the age of 12? Fine, don't teach them, but don't expect to get a job as a public HS teacher, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jane&#8211;can&#8217;t the pharmacists set professional standards against such behavior? I believe they have. We all have a right to not be forced to sell or distribute BC pills; we don&#8217;t have a constitutional right to be certified as a practicing pharmacist.  I&#8217;m not sure what problem bioethicists would have with professional requirements that pharmacists do the basic functions of their job without discrimination.</p>
<p>This works fine in other professions. You think women shouldn&#8217;t be educated outside the home past the age of 12? Fine, don&#8217;t teach them, but don&#8217;t expect to get a job as a public HS teacher, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: jane</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/08/03/quote-3/#comment-54546</link>
		<dc:creator>jane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/08/03/quote-3/#comment-54546</guid>
		<description>part of the problem with this argument is that legislators and other people don't think in these terms. and they're not going to. 

additionally, we already have precedence for this type of thing: doctors can't be forced to perform abortions (there may be a clause for endangerment of the mother's life). even though abortion is legal, there are many places where women cannot get them, even in hospitals that have all the equipment needed. (again, i'm sure there's a mother's life exemption, but i know of a woman who needed an abortion because of medical issues, and she was forced to go to the abortion clinic in town, rather than have it done by her doctor in her hospital.)

anderson's argument notwithstanding, i'm not sure there's much of a legal case for forcing an individual pharmacist to fill a prescription that was against his (and i'm using 'his' purposely) morals. arthur caplan, a relatively respected bioethicist, made the argument that the pharmacist should not be forced to do so. 

and no, i don't think bcpills are the same as an abortion, although i would support their use even if they were. please note that i have used the full spectrum of birth control options, and think that all people should have these options, and that i totally disagree with these pharmacists' positions. however, i wouldn't want to be forced to do something i was morally against. i once took care of a mentally disabled woman as a weekend job. i had to take her to a bar on saturday nights, where she hung out with her parents' friends- people that had swastikas tattooed on their arms and horrible things on t-shirts. i didn't necessarily feel that i was in danger (as long as i kept my mouth shut), but i was totally morally against giving money to the bar owner and even driving a woman to the bar so she could give money to the bar owner. i should have complained to my boss, but instead, i quit my job. but it would have been nice if my boss had said, "hey, you're right, you can keep your job, but refuse to take her to the bar." and maybe it would be nice for the pharmacy owner to say "yeah, i know you don't want to fill presrciptions for bc, but you should be able to keep your job." (of course, her inability to get to the bar is nowhere as serious as being stuck in a small town after being raped and not being able to get ec.)

what i do think should happen, is that pharmacies themselves- the businesses, whether that encompasses one person or many- should be legally required to fill a prescription. of course the owner of a one-person pharmacy might be morally opposed, but i think that it might be easier (morally?) to compel a business entity to fill all scripts than an individual who is morally opposed. this would allow for moral refusal, but also legally ensure that everyone got what they needed.

i'm actually interested in constructive criticism on this. please don't throw me to the wolves. or be the wolves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>part of the problem with this argument is that legislators and other people don&#8217;t think in these terms. and they&#8217;re not going to. </p>
<p>additionally, we already have precedence for this type of thing: doctors can&#8217;t be forced to perform abortions (there may be a clause for endangerment of the mother&#8217;s life). even though abortion is legal, there are many places where women cannot get them, even in hospitals that have all the equipment needed. (again, i&#8217;m sure there&#8217;s a mother&#8217;s life exemption, but i know of a woman who needed an abortion because of medical issues, and she was forced to go to the abortion clinic in town, rather than have it done by her doctor in her hospital.)</p>
<p>anderson&#8217;s argument notwithstanding, i&#8217;m not sure there&#8217;s much of a legal case for forcing an individual pharmacist to fill a prescription that was against his (and i&#8217;m using &#8216;his&#8217; purposely) morals. arthur caplan, a relatively respected bioethicist, made the argument that the pharmacist should not be forced to do so. </p>
<p>and no, i don&#8217;t think bcpills are the same as an abortion, although i would support their use even if they were. please note that i have used the full spectrum of birth control options, and think that all people should have these options, and that i totally disagree with these pharmacists&#8217; positions. however, i wouldn&#8217;t want to be forced to do something i was morally against. i once took care of a mentally disabled woman as a weekend job. i had to take her to a bar on saturday nights, where she hung out with her parents&#8217; friends- people that had swastikas tattooed on their arms and horrible things on t-shirts. i didn&#8217;t necessarily feel that i was in danger (as long as i kept my mouth shut), but i was totally morally against giving money to the bar owner and even driving a woman to the bar so she could give money to the bar owner. i should have complained to my boss, but instead, i quit my job. but it would have been nice if my boss had said, &#8220;hey, you&#8217;re right, you can keep your job, but refuse to take her to the bar.&#8221; and maybe it would be nice for the pharmacy owner to say &#8220;yeah, i know you don&#8217;t want to fill presrciptions for bc, but you should be able to keep your job.&#8221; (of course, her inability to get to the bar is nowhere as serious as being stuck in a small town after being raped and not being able to get ec.)</p>
<p>what i do think should happen, is that pharmacies themselves- the businesses, whether that encompasses one person or many- should be legally required to fill a prescription. of course the owner of a one-person pharmacy might be morally opposed, but i think that it might be easier (morally?) to compel a business entity to fill all scripts than an individual who is morally opposed. this would allow for moral refusal, but also legally ensure that everyone got what they needed.</p>
<p>i&#8217;m actually interested in constructive criticism on this. please don&#8217;t throw me to the wolves. or be the wolves.</p>
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		<title>By: djw</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/08/03/quote-3/#comment-54542</link>
		<dc:creator>djw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:20:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/08/03/quote-3/#comment-54542</guid>
		<description>Good to see Anderson using the blogosphere to get some readers (and to write some new, cool stuff in a new format). The whole series is just great, and I hope (as a political theorist) she writes it up as a more formal article. She's one of the best political philosophers working today, and she doesn't get enough recognition in or outside of the academy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good to see Anderson using the blogosphere to get some readers (and to write some new, cool stuff in a new format). The whole series is just great, and I hope (as a political theorist) she writes it up as a more formal article. She&#8217;s one of the best political philosophers working today, and she doesn&#8217;t get enough recognition in or outside of the academy.</p>
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