Also, props to piny for the perfect pocket picture of transphobia.

Sarah, Again, your ability to express concepts is amazing.

“(don’t get me started on how sexuality and cultural narratives enter into all this).” Where and when do we get to hear this?

Thanks for the compliments Rock, but remember, I’m only approaching this from a theoretical angle, and at best a research angle, but Jay, Piny and Nick are LIVING this, and their voices of experience hold far more weight than my academic one, as much as I adore playing with gender theoretically.

But as to cultural narratives and the intersection of gender and sexuality, as much as I would love to post about it here, personally I think it’s much better that I don’t hijack the thread, as this discussion of the ins and outs of transphobia is something that NEEDS to be discussed here, as honestly it doesn’t get brought up enough. Further, I think it’s incredible that we have three transMEN here, as (while completely valid and needed) transwomen often dominate trans discussions simply because of numbers. Bravo guys.

Again with this submit comment problem. I write a tome and get Cliff Notes.

Anyhow, thanks for being honest about bowing out.

My wrap-up on this topic:
People provide explanations for things in ways that support their particular world view.

Where world views collide, problems arise. What is so troublesome about transphobia on the left, for me at least, is that I fall prey to the belief that people on the left should know better.

Alas, my problem, I know. I mean we have people who can discuss the most arcane details of the IMF or Karl Rove’s cheats and lies, who, when it comes to trans folks lives, simply fall in line with basic pop science and a few feminists theorists. No questioning of the agenda behind such beliefs or even a questioning of how we came to believe such things in the first place.

And what is the worst, for me, is that we are not listened to. But then I see how the right - if I am to go by the posts to this blog - treats issues of importance and life to people posting on this blog, and I think, the cycle repeats itself.

We all want to be right. We grow up in a culture where everyone, from the TV anchorperson to adverts to doctors to teachers to parents are “experts” about our lives. So why wouldn’t we think we are “experts” about other peoples lives, especially people with whom we have little or no contact? That trans people suffer a National Geographic like existence through the mechanism of academic theories only makes the situation worse, I think.

But in the end, I’m glad people put themselves out here. Piny is awesome in his lightening quick read on transphobia. Much faster than I and a great teacher. Nick is brave (despite protests to the contrary) and wonderful and reminds about grace and graciousness.

j-ha and Niels thanks. You both remind me about my own edges and discomfort. Your beliefs enrage me because a part of me still believes I have no right to exist; or that I shouldn’t exist; or that I am a freak. Your words remind me to treat myself kindly and with compassion and to remember that I live and exist outside all linguistic and scientific frameworks.

Despite our theoretical yearnings, I cannot be reduced to a series of linear explanations about my life. Neither can anyone else.

Thank goodness for that.

>>Jay:

I hope you’ll understand that, while I appreciate what you’ve written, I just don’t have the energy to do this again. I’ve been online for a while and have seen dozens of these debates happen. They always follow the same script and generally do nothing but cause bad feelings all around. So I’m bowing out.

The problem is, if you set male=bio-male, you’re saying that transmen aren’t male. As Jay pointed out, there are many ways to define male, and some of them do indeed include transmen. By insisting that bio-male is the only reasonable meaning of male, you’re inflicting your version of their identity and failing to respect their own self-definition.

I’m sorry that you feel it’s not worth participating in the discussion and that you feel unjustly accused. FWIW, I don’t think transphobe necessarily=evil: a lot of it arises out of simple ignorance that can easily be dispelled if both sides are prepared to have an honest dialogue.

The government says gays and lesbians (and lest we forget, bisexuals) can be married, just not to people of the same sex. This isn’t pedantry; this is the reason why anti-same-sex marriage laws are unlawful discrimination.

Just forget I said this, please? I’m having a bad day, and I’m sorry I was snippy.

Barbara, I don’ t have a problem with differentiating physically, politically, or experientially between transpeople and non-transpeople of the same gender (although the people generally so eager to do _that_ have a suspiciously easy time equating ftms with women and females, and mtfs with men and males). And I don’t have a problem with using different words to describe us. I _do_ have a problem with acting as though the chromosomal definition of “male” and “female” is one with which all reasonable people reasonably agree, or acting as though trans_male_ people and trans_female_ people don’t exist, or cannot be men and women respectively. Niels’s terminology, and j-ha’s, doesn’t include transpeople as exceptional, but forgets them altogether.

I have an even bigger problem with people who adopt, for whatever reasons, definitions of “male” and “female” that render transpeople and their identities invisible who then act as though it’s below the belt when transpeople call them anti-trans or transphobic. Deciding that sex assigned at birth, or physical sex pre-transition, is the deciding factor in determining gender has a lot of really important negative ramifications re: transpeople and their lives. Like it or not, they extend to “equal rights under the law” issues.

Any other purported “essential” can be supplied exogenously.

Personally, I think it’s okay to use the terms male and female with reference other than to chromosomes and gonads, but it is an extremely confusing use of language, given the current state, and even if you want the current state of affairs to change I think a certain amount of definitional predicate would go a long way to making the discussion more understandable. I’m still a little confused, perhaps because I honestly don’t know (not well anyway) any transgendered people.

I won’t insinuate, then, and I won’t shout. You are transphobic. Your beliefs are transphobic. They are inimical to transpeople, myself included, and they rest on assumptions about what is and is not important to gender that exclude and marginalize transpeople. You might not hate us, and you might not want us out of your neighborhood, and you might even have lots and lots of trans friends, but that’s not the only form prejudice can take and you know it. I doubt you hesitate to refer to “trans politics” as anti-feminist–and you definitely didn’t hesitate to shut me down here, as (a) a “trans politics” drone and (b) a knee-jerk tranny-card playing bigot.

As a feminist and (I’m assuming) a lesbian-rights activist, you should be well aware that this question and questions about terminology and biological determinism are inseparable. Thanks so much for having my back on the whole murder-bad thing, but that’s not enough.

…Males cannot get pregnant. Period. There is nothing anti-trans about saying that.>>

Is it anti-gay of the government–or for wingnuts–to define marriage as one man and one woman, and to say that gay people therefore cannot get married, period? Does this definition of marriage rest on assumptions about what qualities are most important that you see as heterosexist or limited? Or is it just a difference of opinion that has no effect on your life at all, a totally rational viewpoint that doesn’t indicate a deeper thread of sexism and homophobia?

Piny, I know you and Jay are different. My post was solely in response to him. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

Also, I know that insinuating that I’m trans-phobic is a nice way to discredit and shame me, but I don’t want you to think that it worked. I’m not taking part in this thread because, as you’ve demonstrated, any attempt to talk about trans politics that is critical in any way is generally met with “TRANS-PHOBE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” I want every person to be free from fear of violence and to have full rights under the law. Just because my particular feminist politics and my ideas of gender conflict with *some* of what you think about gender doesn’t make me a bigot.

Jay:

I hope you’ll understand that, while I appreciate what you’ve written, I just don’t have the energy to do this again. I’ve been online for a while and have seen dozens of these debates happen. They always follow the same script and generally do nothing but cause bad feelings all around. So I’m bowing out.

Especially when used in such a way as to render all transitioned bodies artificial. It’s a contentious statement at best to assert that either Jay or I are _biologically_ female.

The “biology” that defines human remains complicated and is only now slowly beginning to be understood. Most people think that “biology” is chromosomes. But then we have something like 23 varieties of sex chromosomes that occur naturally.

Then we have the “biology” of gestational hormones, which add an additional set of spices to chromosomes.

Further the range of hormones has significant overlap between the two “sexes.”

Let’s not forget the “biology” of “desire,” “gender,” “roles” etc. And then there are “gonads.” But some folks have ambiguous gonads from birth.

Science is socially constructed. “Facts” become facts over time and after much debate. Remember the whole earth is flat debate? Or the supposition that human genomes varied widely from other genomes? (had to drop that supposition when we found we only differ with the fruit flies something like 1%).

I bring up all of these things because “biology” is as loaded a term as any. People yammer on about chromosomes without ever having had a genetic test in their life, and rely instead on what the doctor told them when he or she looked between their legs at birth. Then say, “all men are xy” or “males can’t get pregnant.”

Well, they can. Our imagination and practices are not limited by people’s narrow language and understandings of the human condition.

The fact that our lives do not fit in the “it is isn’t sexist, it’s biology” argument says nothing about us or our choices. Forcing us into a box doesn’t change the truth.