For me the Baptism is the public expression of a change that has undertaken ones spiritual relationship and position. The symbolism is ancient (and karmic). The symbol of the water as the boundary of life above and death and the underworld below is present in many systems. It is the death of the worldly will and burial by going under the surface as did Christ. The reentering of the world a new being is signified, the resurrection into new life is illustrated by coming out. The death, burial and resurrection are all wrapped into one ceremony. It is not for the forgiveness of sin as some think. (I guess for them it could be.) Even Johns Baptism wasn’t for the forgiveness but for repentance of sins. (Closely tied to the Miqwat baths for ritual cleanliness.) The sins thing is tied in as folks being baptized did so often at conversion and the sin connection was present from the beginning. The early Church in Acts relates the Baptism with the bestowing of the Holy Spirit, again a Sacrament that conveys the depth of the change, yet does not create it, IMO. (Christ did not Baptise anyone in water for anything, however His Disciples did with John the Baptist.)

As soon as Christ left the earth the Church was on track to be changed by the Jews and the Greeks, and many others as well. A lot of baggage has been added, however all we have to do is keep it simple and it works just fine. All the law can be summed up in to the law of love, how simple is that?

I yakked with the Krishna’s in Berkley in the mid 70’s, great fun, free food and warm company, I missed the spiritualism, my loss. Blessings.

Ron F: No one here doubts that the acts of jihadists are evil. And at a certain level, you have a point; when Christian fundies see art that offends them, they tend to want to do away with the NEA, whereas the Taliban took great pride in destroying the Buddhist statues at Bamiyan. But I find that cold comfort. I agree with Amanda; put the turban on Falwell and give Bin Laden a shave and even with my glasses on, I sure couldn’t tell the two apart.

Many folks do make it a legal thing and that is too bad, it is worth so much more as a love offering. I am not lecturing, as the way you describe it, I agree; Piffle! Blessings.

Indeed–not to mention offering your daughters up for gang-rape, incestuous marriages, and child sacrifice.

Not that the pagans were any better, or that atheists were/are any better. But come on. Religion does not make one moral or less inclined to commit evil deeds.

I don’t care what anyone believes, but when people try to turn their faith into law I get hives. And that’s the main point of the original post–for all of their differences, fundamentalists (and I do see a difference between someone who’s evengelical and who’s fundamentalist) of all Abrahamic stripes share the same restrictive view on women, gays, and life in general.

Right, because life in the pagan societies they sprang from was enlightened and gentle.

Human nature has a lot to answer for. The Abrahamic faiths are what have pushed people from the days of sacrificing babies on altars, to the days when people living on Abraham’s moral inheritance can persuade themselves that the lack of bloodshed in their own life is due to their own intrinsic goodness.

Point taken. Blessings.

My bringing up McVeigh is precisely the point. Most people in this country are quick to dismiss McVeigh’s christianity as “wrong” or him as a “psychopath.”

But we are not so quick to dismiss Osama Bin Laden’s Islam. The “suicide bombers” Islam is never questioned, at least not in the mainstream media.

Until we can distinguish religiosity from terrorism in this country across the board and particulary in the left, I will continue to remind those of us on the left that Timothy McVeigh identified as a Christian.

Regards,
Jay

That is ridiculous. Timothy McVeigh was a psychopath. The connection is beneath you.
Either way, he should not have been executed. Blessings.

The undermining and exploitation of all that is familiar and Eastern by Modern and Post Modern Western companies and values is a terrifying thing for many Eastern peoples. (Why should this be news?) At the very same time, the undermining of what has largely been a Judeo/Christian culture in the West, Enlightenment and Modern for a couple centuries is slipping into a Post Modern yet to be defined culture. This scares the heck out of the folks looking for stability in the faith, largely conservative Fundamentalists. (What is news about this?) That fear incites in people the worst in us is not surprising. What if we enjoined them to stymie the fears?

The bigger fear (in my mind) is if the two Fundies ever got together seeing that they have similar interests and fears and really put the pressure on the rest of us to be like them. Blessings.

(Not to be a complete smart-ass, my point should be obvious)

Muslim fundamentalists are in a state of civil war against governments that they feel are insufficiently pious, or insufficiently representative (eg., Saudi Arabia), or Aren’t Run By Their Own Party. They don’t respect the laws of the government because they don’t think the government is legitimate. The legal and penal systems of the countries are often inefficient. The press is often not free, and violence represents great publicity unobtainable by other means. So Muslim fundamentalists find violence a useful political tactic, and they can find enough unhappy footsoldiers to carry it out.

When I read the post, I didn’t think of terrorist groups: I thought of fundamental religion in government.

Hmm. Damn. You’re clearly right, and I’m clearly wrong. My projecting “Islamic Fundamentalists->Terrorists” is equivalent to other posters’ projecting “Christian Fundamentalists->Inquisitors”.

I suck, and humbly withdraw pretty much everything I have said.

Sorry about that.