Reginald Denney and several other White, Asian-American and Latino individuals would have died, if other people, in almost all cases African-American, would have not intervened.

And I don’t think there’s any record of any activists being killed at the LA2000 convention protests, but one man did. A guy I knew presided over the man’s funeral when he died of a head injury from police officers. A lot of the facts get buried in major events.

Except for these injuries to Denney and other White individuals, very little was said about anything that dealt with death or injuries to people, even though at least 55 people did die. Most of the emphasis was on property damage, which was fairly extensive, especially in Southern L.A. and sporadically in other areas of the city, and country.

My point about the role of racism in all this, was that it took years of a lot of inaction on the parts of a lot of people, politicians, leaders to have had a riot. I don’t think any Angelino should, or really is surprised that they did happen. People know there are problems, yet their only response to them is to send people out to churches and community centers to implore religious and community leaders to keep people calm and placid each and every time the LAPD officers beat and shoot people. The USDOJ even has a special division just to do that. When they were afraid my city was going to go up a few years ago, the USDOJ people were here for a year. But, even in my city, we have many of the same serious issues and problems still going unaddressed. And it gets to the point where people almost feel they have to riot to get any attention at all. It’s a terrible cycle which will keep perpetuating itself, certainly as long as racism and classism are around.

With regard to the present, again, I suspect it’s not that I don’t acknowledge it. Rather it’s that I have a different definition of racism from you, and consequently a rather different analysis of it. In my definition, whites can be victims of it, and an example of that is when several white people were beaten to death during the riots in LA after the Police who beat Rodney King were aquitted. Now it seems to me that there is a lot of racism in that picture. It looked to me that the officers beat King because he was black, and that the jury acquitted the officers because he was black, and because they (the officers) were white, and that the mob beat some people to death because they were white.

Which White person was beaten to death in the L.A. riots of ‘92?

None, as far as I can tell. A quick search of the web confirms everything you said about the situation. My belief that there had been was clearly unfounded. Thank you for your correction. I apologise for my error, promise never to make it again, and to challenge others if I see them making it.

While we are on the subject, what about this: “the mob beat some people to death”. As an example of prejudicial language, that would be hard to top; it is just so wrong in so many ways.

I am appalled that I wrote that.

I am so sick and tired of those two words…

“So, it’s a serious question: why is it so important to you that the past and present culture of racism against black people in the US should never be acknowledged? “

Because it’s more important for White people to feel comfortable, than it is to acknowlege the real life past and present experiences of people subjected to racism. The horrors of slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, lynching, terrorism, etc. just can’t compare to that little twist in the gut a White person experiences when they just have to think(usually against their will) about how they benefit from racism, past and present.

With regard to the present, again, I suspect it’s not that I don’t acknowledge it. Rather it’s that I have a different definition of racism from you, and consequently a rather different analysis of it. In my definition, whites can be victims of it, and an example of that is when several white people were beaten to death during the riots in LA after the Police who beat Rodney King were aquitted. Now it seems to me that there is a lot of racism in that picture. It looked to me that the officers beat King because he was black, and that the jury acquitted the officers because he was black, and because they (the officers) were white, and that the mob beat some people to death because they were white.

Which White person was beaten to death in the L.A. riots of ‘92? Several White and Hispanic motorists were badly injured by African-Americans, but I don’t recall if any of them died, though several would have, if people hadn’t intervened. Many of the people who died were African-Americans who were shot by police.

I believe the White victims of violence were not experiencing racism against them by African-Americans, but were people in the wrong place at the wrong time, when the riots broke out, when years of racism against African-Americans in L.A. and nationwide exploded once again, as it does every few decades, usually precipitated by an incident of police misconduct.

Not that it excuses the people who committed the violence againt them, but these White people were casualties of racism that had been part of L.A. for many years that had been allowed to flourish and never was addressed, even after the 1965 riots. They were unfortunate standins for those in power who had exercised institutional racism for many years and built up a lot of anger, resentment and fury within the African-American and Latino communities in L.A. It’s hard to understand what it is like to experience that daily, often with poverty on top of it in neglected neighborhoods with few legal jobs and not much for kids to do with themselves. I’ve talked to people in L.A. including the mom of the man who was one of the ones who beat Reginald Denney, and she told me a lot of things about growing up and raising kids in the neighborhoods. I still don’t believe that what her son and others did was justice, because Denny personally hadn’t done anything. But I got a bit more understanding. The rage builds up and the people in power who are really the source of that rage are out of reach, so people just attack the closest person who symbolizes them.

(My mom was driving home from work when the riots broke out and she had people on her car, and watched them setting fires, but she made it home all right. Most of the focus was on property, not people.)

The 1992 riots were decades in the making, they could have been prevented if racism and classism in L.A.(and other places) had been seriously addressed. Neglect in areas of the city. Incidents besides King involving minorities shot and killed, and beaten by the LAPD, which at the time of the riots was under Darryl Gates, you know the guy who publicly said Black people had anatomical differences that made the chokehold more deadly to them and was clearly a racist.

There’s racial tension btwn African-Americans and Korean-Americans which exploded as well during the riots, formed over years by cultural clashes in inner city neighborhoods and the controversial killing of Latasha Harlin, a Black teenaged girl, who was shot in the back of the head by a Korean-American incident as she left the store after an altercation over a bottle of orange juice. That shooting was caught on surveillance video and broadcast on television, almost as much as the King tape. Both Korean-Americans and African-Americans face racism from the institutions in L.A. which are predomantly controlled by Whites, but that incident involving Harlin caused a lot of pain and anger.

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I’ve been trying to impress on my 14-year-old daughter more or less the same thing as your cartoon, in words:
1. White Europeans went over to Africa and kidnapped millions of people, then brought them over the colonies, and later the States, to use as free labor. The African people were treated like crap.
2. Later, after the slaves were all freed, and then tried to build decent lives in this country, the descendants of the white European settlers continued to make the lives of the kidnapped Africans and their descendants miserable by treating them like crap.
3. Nowadays, we look at the descendants of these first kidnapped Africans and wonder why they aren’t doing so well. And we continue to treat them like crap.

It’s interesting the words and attitudes ALREADY appearing in my daughter about black people. I have to look at my own words and actions very hard, and also wonder about other ways she gets these ideas. We’ll never stop it until we stop passing it down to our children.

Yes, white people can and sometimes do suffer racism from African Americans or other people of color. But, the difference in my eyes is that institutional and structural racism still exists that disadvantage people of color in this country. Have we made progress — well yes we have made much progress since the 1900’s, but we cannot ever think we are done as long as predjudice is alive and well.

I think that this is brought up, in exactly the same way, and for exactly the same reasons, as when in a discussion of domestic violence, some men will always insist on discussing male victims of domestic violence (and usually, they will want to make clear that women/feminists don’t do enough to help male victims of domestic violence, and that this proves that women/feminists are just as sexist as men).

That is, some white people want to talk about white people being victims of racism in the US, and some men want to talk about men being victims of domestic violence, because they actively do not want to be part of a conversation where the focus is on black people and white racism, or on women and male violence towards women: they want to talk about a small minority of events in which white people experience racism directed at them because they are white, or in which men experience domestic violence.

That is why I think it’s important to you to raise that question, and why you want to believe that the reason I didn’t raise it, or think it particularly important to the discussion, is because for some reason “it’s important to me” not to acknowledge it, rather than because racism directed against white people is minute and ineffective compared to racism directed against black people.

Daran, actually, I was directing my comment into midair not least because I felt both you and Richard Bennett were trying to blame black people for being discriminated against (but I acknowledge that, rather, you were trying to blame women, both black and white, for being discriminated against): but also because it is a general question. I didn’t intend it as an ad hom attack.

OK. Substitute “respond” for “reply”. That you for acknowlging that it was a response to me, as well as Richard. Please also understand that I am not Richard, and that nothing he has said represents me or vice versa. I don’t agree that I am blaming anyone for being discriminated against, and it’s certainly not my intention to do so.

I also have to add that it looks to me very much like you are blaming people for being discriminated against.

Plainly it is very important to some white people in the US not to acknowledge the past history of racism: both slavery, and the continuing racism against black people that followed slavery. To some white people in the US, any acknowledgement of how white people as a group benefited by oppressing black people is taboo,

I would agree with you that some people in the US (and elsewhere) do this, and that they are overwhelmingly white people. I suspect that I would not agree with you necessarily for which people this is a fair comment.

and any particularly striking illustration of the situation - as Amp’s cartoon certainly is - needs to be mocked and contradicted, as both you and Richard did.

I agree that it was a very striking illustration. I didn’t intend to mock it in any way, and I’m sorry if it came across that way. However, in so far as it is a political statement, rather than merely an entertaining cartoon, my understanding is that it is permitted to comment and criticise, both the political statements of other commenters, and of Ampersand himself. Now, if I’m wrong about that, then maybe I should just leave. But I’d rather hear it from him, if you don’t mind.

So, it’s a serious question: why is it so important to you that the past and present culture of racism against black people in the US should never be acknowledged?

I’ll take the question in two parts. Past and present. Past first.

It’s not important to me to not acknowledge it. In fact, the opposite is true. It’s important to me that it be acknowledged. I said, over a couple of posts:

White kid climbs over two kids - one white and one black, to get to the top shelf … First time around, the black kid was utterly crushed by the first white kid. The burden that fell on the second white kid was much less, and the second white kid also trampled the black kid at the time

Serious question: How have I failed to acknowledge the past culture of racism in the US? The above would seem to clearly acknowledge it?

With regard to the present, again, I suspect it’s not that I don’t acknowledge it. Rather it’s that I have a different definition of racism from you, and consequently a rather different analysis of it. In my definition, whites can be victims of it, and an example of that is when several white people were beaten to death during the riots in LA after the Police who beat Rodney King were aquitted. Now it seems to me that there is a lot of racism in that picture. It looked to me that the officers beat King because he was black, and that the jury acquitted the officers because he was black, and because they (the officers) were white, and that the mob beat some people to death because they were white.

And we should acknowledge that there was much more to it than that. The black communities in LA suffer appalling poverty and grinding social deprivation because they are black, and there are various structural reasons for this. And we could also look at the wider effects on America in ever widening and deepening circles of acknowledgement.

One thing I would point out in the above is that leave them alone and they will come home bringing their tails behind them. Jesurgislac, please tell me that you are still reading this and that the white clouds haven’t covered your eyes. Nowhere have I blamed anyone in the above discussion, so let’s do so now. I hold the individuals who committed specific acts are individually responsible for those acts. Beyond that, I’m not particularly interested in casting blame because I don’t think it helps. I’m certainly not blaming ‘blacks’ collectively for anything.

So I have a couple more serious questions for you. Assuming that you’ve read the above, and recognising that it’s impossible to acknowledge everything, what, in broad terms, am I failing to acknowledge about the present culture of racism?

Secondly why is it so important to you that the fact that white people can be victims of racism in the US should never be acknowledged?

It’s not that it should never be acknowledged so much as it should be put in context. The US stopped practicing slavery in 1865, and by 1950 the Black family was essentially as healthy as the white family, with an out-of-wedlock birth rate in the single digits.

But since that time we’ve seen a massive breakdown in the Black family, and this breakdown has had disastrous consequences for Black children, especially boys. The tendency of the left is to ignore all the damage that public policy has inflicted on black people since 1950 and to solely confine itself to condemning slavery and racism.

So my question for you, Jesu, is why is it so important to ignore present public policy effects on black people, especially boys, in America?

Plainly it is very important to some white people in the US not to acknowledge the past history of racism: both slavery, and the continuing racism against black people that followed slavery. To some white people in the US, any acknowledgement of how white people as a group benefited by oppressing black people is taboo, and any particularly striking illustration of the situation - as Amp’s cartoon certainly is - needs to be mocked and contradicted, as both you and Richard did.

So, it’s a serious question: why is it so important to you that the past and present culture of racism against black people in the US should never be acknowledged?