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	<title>Comments on: A Bit More on The Second Sex</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/</link>
	<description>Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:13:46 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2</generator>
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		<title>By: Smite Me! [.net] &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Borrowed Links</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-335953</link>
		<dc:creator>Smite Me! [.net] &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Borrowed Links</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 19:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-335953</guid>
		<description>[...] One last link, this one from Alas (a blog): [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] One last link, this one from Alas (a blog): [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Schala</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-333262</link>
		<dc:creator>Schala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 16:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-333262</guid>
		<description>"BTW, babelfish gave an english-to-french translation of “travesty” as “parodie.” I was curious, so I tried it. For whatever reason, it didn’t translate “transvestite” at all. Same with “transexual.”"

That's probably because "parodie" is invariable "Une parodie", there cannot be a masculine version of it. While transvestite and transsexual can translate into both masculine and feminine form, depending on context (subject).

Too bad I can't translate it myself, I'd violate their copyright laws or something. I'm fluent in both French and English, French being my first language.

For the record, a male-to-female transsexual would be called "transsexuelle", while a female-to-male transsexual would be called "transsexuel". The problem is that many people, including doctors, will inverse them (either maliciously, or by ignorance), causing unnecessary confusion on top of it all.

The most laughable thing that's been said to me, by the government, employment section, is that my transition was understood as "a change of sexual orientation", I just laughed out loud in her face.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;BTW, babelfish gave an english-to-french translation of “travesty” as “parodie.” I was curious, so I tried it. For whatever reason, it didn’t translate “transvestite” at all. Same with “transexual.”&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s probably because &#8220;parodie&#8221; is invariable &#8220;Une parodie&#8221;, there cannot be a masculine version of it. While transvestite and transsexual can translate into both masculine and feminine form, depending on context (subject).</p>
<p>Too bad I can&#8217;t translate it myself, I&#8217;d violate their copyright laws or something. I&#8217;m fluent in both French and English, French being my first language.</p>
<p>For the record, a male-to-female transsexual would be called &#8220;transsexuelle&#8221;, while a female-to-male transsexual would be called &#8220;transsexuel&#8221;. The problem is that many people, including doctors, will inverse them (either maliciously, or by ignorance), causing unnecessary confusion on top of it all.</p>
<p>The most laughable thing that&#8217;s been said to me, by the government, employment section, is that my transition was understood as &#8220;a change of sexual orientation&#8221;, I just laughed out loud in her face.</p>
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		<title>By: derivative work &#187; Blog Archive &#187; copyright versus writers</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-333194</link>
		<dc:creator>derivative work &#187; Blog Archive &#187; copyright versus writers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 23:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-333194</guid>
		<description>[...] 12/21: Alas, a Blog has heard a rumor that Knopf may have agreed to a new translation, and links to another article on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 12/21: Alas, a Blog has heard a rumor that Knopf may have agreed to a new translation, and links to another article on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: KatyD76</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-306000</link>
		<dc:creator>KatyD76</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 03:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-306000</guid>
		<description>I'm certainly not a lawyer or an expert on contract law, but I thought when parties entered into a contract it is implied that they act in good faith. Surely there is a case to be made that the publishers have not acted in good faith, which renders the contract invalid. Or if the current translation is so inaccurate is there an argument to be made that a new translation is not in fact a breach of copyright, as it would essentially be a different book? Whatever the case, the current attitude of the publishers only serves to prove De Beauvoir's point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m certainly not a lawyer or an expert on contract law, but I thought when parties entered into a contract it is implied that they act in good faith. Surely there is a case to be made that the publishers have not acted in good faith, which renders the contract invalid. Or if the current translation is so inaccurate is there an argument to be made that a new translation is not in fact a breach of copyright, as it would essentially be a different book? Whatever the case, the current attitude of the publishers only serves to prove De Beauvoir&#8217;s point.</p>
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		<title>By: alsis39</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-91081</link>
		<dc:creator>alsis39</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-91081</guid>
		<description>In regards to Bellamy's points in #9, isn't that what annotations and footnotes are for ?  

BTW, babelfish gave an english-to-french translation of "travesty" as "parodie."  I was curious, so I tried it.  For whatever reason, it didn't translate "transvestite" at all.  Same with "transexual."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In regards to Bellamy&#8217;s points in #9, isn&#8217;t that what annotations and footnotes are for ?  </p>
<p>BTW, babelfish gave an english-to-french translation of &#8220;travesty&#8221; as &#8220;parodie.&#8221;  I was curious, so I tried it.  For whatever reason, it didn&#8217;t translate &#8220;transvestite&#8221; at all.  Same with &#8220;transexual.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Imagynne</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-91068</link>
		<dc:creator>Imagynne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-91068</guid>
		<description>#382!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#382!</p>
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		<title>By: aspazia</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90895</link>
		<dc:creator>aspazia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2005 03:32:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90895</guid>
		<description>I would contact Toril Moi (who is at Duke, I think?)  and Margaret Simons and tell them about your petition.  Both have worked a lot on de Beauvoir's work and would probably be excited by what you are doing.

I am so thrilled that you are writing about this!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would contact Toril Moi (who is at Duke, I think?)  and Margaret Simons and tell them about your petition.  Both have worked a lot on de Beauvoir&#8217;s work and would probably be excited by what you are doing.</p>
<p>I am so thrilled that you are writing about this!</p>
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		<title>By: lilianfriedberg</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90858</link>
		<dc:creator>lilianfriedberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90858</guid>
		<description>Hey there, do't know where else to post this slightly off topic comment, but--partly based on your committment to this translation issue, I've just linked you up here at Historical Footnotes. 
http://historicalfootnotes.blogspot.com/

Kudos to you. 

(Am relatively new to the blogging world, so forgive my Net illiteracy!). 

As a professional translator, I certainly appreciate your efforts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey there, do&#8217;t know where else to post this slightly off topic comment, but&#8211;partly based on your committment to this translation issue, I&#8217;ve just linked you up here at Historical Footnotes.<br />
<a href="http://historicalfootnotes.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://historicalfootnotes.blogspot.com/</a></p>
<p>Kudos to you. </p>
<p>(Am relatively new to the blogging world, so forgive my Net illiteracy!). </p>
<p>As a professional translator, I certainly appreciate your efforts.</p>
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		<title>By: LC</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90829</link>
		<dc:creator>LC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:49:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90829</guid>
		<description>Does anyone knowof  there is a better english translation that can be purchased in the UK,canada,australia or india?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone knowof  there is a better english translation that can be purchased in the UK,canada,australia or india?</p>
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		<title>By: sennoma</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90817</link>
		<dc:creator>sennoma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90817</guid>
		<description>I'm signature #329.  I read and enjoyed &lt;i&gt;Things of the Spirit&lt;/i&gt; before I even had any real idea what feminism was, so I'll certainly buy and read a new translation of TSS if and when it appears.

Thanks, Amp, for bringing this to a wider audience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m signature #329.  I read and enjoyed <i>Things of the Spirit</i> before I even had any real idea what feminism was, so I&#8217;ll certainly buy and read a new translation of TSS if and when it appears.</p>
<p>Thanks, Amp, for bringing this to a wider audience.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Bellamy</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90779</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Bellamy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90779</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;French: c'est une travestie.
Literal: she remains a transvestite.
Knopf:  She is a travesty.&lt;/i&gt;

But, of course, the word "travestie" actually does mean both.  It is a fact of translation that English simply has more words than many other languages do, so a translator from French will have to make numerous decisions about which English word to translate a French one from dozens of possibilities.

Since all reading -- even in one's own language -- is in some degree an interpretation, one wonders how much the original translation "got it wrong", and how much is that a past reader would make different assumptions about meanings and intentions than a modern reader would.  

It is entirely possible that the original author intended both  of travesty/tranvestite in French, but there is no way to present the "pun" in translation, so a translator has to make a choice.  Choosing "transvestite" is the more charitable choice, but not necessarily the only one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>French: c&#8217;est une travestie.<br />
Literal: she remains a transvestite.<br />
Knopf:  She is a travesty.</i></p>
<p>But, of course, the word &#8220;travestie&#8221; actually does mean both.  It is a fact of translation that English simply has more words than many other languages do, so a translator from French will have to make numerous decisions about which English word to translate a French one from dozens of possibilities.</p>
<p>Since all reading &#8212; even in one&#8217;s own language &#8212; is in some degree an interpretation, one wonders how much the original translation &#8220;got it wrong&#8221;, and how much is that a past reader would make different assumptions about meanings and intentions than a modern reader would.  </p>
<p>It is entirely possible that the original author intended both  of travesty/tranvestite in French, but there is no way to present the &#8220;pun&#8221; in translation, so a translator has to make a choice.  Choosing &#8220;transvestite&#8221; is the more charitable choice, but not necessarily the only one.</p>
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		<title>By: binky</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90772</link>
		<dc:creator>binky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90772</guid>
		<description>"sounded reactionary and out-of-touch with authentic feminism"

It looks like the translation is not just "bad" in the sense of unsophisticated, inaccurate, etc, but "bad" in the loaded language of the time.  The use of "travesty" for example, is probably some of both, because it is a common term (now pejorative) for transsexual in some romance language countries.  Translating it - as a false cognate - directly gives it a different if no less pejorative meaning.

On the devil's advocate side of things, I could see why the publisher would not be very interested in translating the book if there is not a big market.  Translation is incredibly expensive, quality translation more so, and doing things like poetry and philosophy requires a huge amount of work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;sounded reactionary and out-of-touch with authentic feminism&#8221;</p>
<p>It looks like the translation is not just &#8220;bad&#8221; in the sense of unsophisticated, inaccurate, etc, but &#8220;bad&#8221; in the loaded language of the time.  The use of &#8220;travesty&#8221; for example, is probably some of both, because it is a common term (now pejorative) for transsexual in some romance language countries.  Translating it - as a false cognate - directly gives it a different if no less pejorative meaning.</p>
<p>On the devil&#8217;s advocate side of things, I could see why the publisher would not be very interested in translating the book if there is not a big market.  Translation is incredibly expensive, quality translation more so, and doing things like poetry and philosophy requires a huge amount of work.</p>
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		<title>By: Margot</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90707</link>
		<dc:creator>Margot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2005 01:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90707</guid>
		<description>Thanks for publishing the link to the petition. I just signed it and we're now 3 signatures away from doubling the previous total!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for publishing the link to the petition. I just signed it and we&#8217;re now 3 signatures away from doubling the previous total!</p>
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		<title>By: Word Munger &#187; Simone a besoin de traduction!</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90699</link>
		<dc:creator>Word Munger &#187; Simone a besoin de traduction!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90699</guid>
		<description>[...] From Alas, A Blog: U.S. copyright law has enabled Knopf, the original publisher of the English-language version of The Second Sex, to prevent any new translations from being published. This is a problem, because the English translation Knopf uses is both inaccurate and incoherent. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] From Alas, A Blog: U.S. copyright law has enabled Knopf, the original publisher of the English-language version of The Second Sex, to prevent any new translations from being published. This is a problem, because the English translation Knopf uses is both inaccurate and incoherent. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jakobpunkt</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90697</link>
		<dc:creator>Jakobpunkt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90697</guid>
		<description>I wonder if Mme. de Beauvoire's estate might have a legal case?  Something about libelling her good name by publishing trash in her name?  I mean, if the English version says things that are in direct opposition to what she said in the French, they could have a case for misquoting or something, couldn't they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if Mme. de Beauvoire&#8217;s estate might have a legal case?  Something about libelling her good name by publishing trash in her name?  I mean, if the English version says things that are in direct opposition to what she said in the French, they could have a case for misquoting or something, couldn&#8217;t they?</p>
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		<title>By: The Happy Feminist</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90696</link>
		<dc:creator>The Happy Feminist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:09:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90696</guid>
		<description>This explains the rollercoaster feeling I had when I read The Second Sex (many years ago)-- at times de Beauvoir seemed so on point and other times she sounded reactionary and out-of-touch with authentic feminism.  I bet a lot of my negative responses to her had to do with mis-translation of her real ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This explains the rollercoaster feeling I had when I read The Second Sex (many years ago)&#8211; at times de Beauvoir seemed so on point and other times she sounded reactionary and out-of-touch with authentic feminism.  I bet a lot of my negative responses to her had to do with mis-translation of her real ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: maureen</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90683</link>
		<dc:creator>maureen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90683</guid>
		<description>Just what we need, Robert.  The old battles re-examined, the assumed certainties disinterred, people arguing with conviction and enthusiasm  -  et voila!  -  a reinvigorated feminism less easily silenced or pushed off course by miserable old gits.  (Excusing your goodself from this tag, of course.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just what we need, Robert.  The old battles re-examined, the assumed certainties disinterred, people arguing with conviction and enthusiasm  -  et voila!  -  a reinvigorated feminism less easily silenced or pushed off course by miserable old gits.  (Excusing your goodself from this tag, of course.)</p>
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		<title>By: Marjani</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90678</link>
		<dc:creator>Marjani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90678</guid>
		<description>That is so frustrating.  I haven't read the second sex, but I did buy a copy of it recently.  Now i don't really want to read it because it seems that I will not be reading what she meant.  Do you still suggest reading it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is so frustrating.  I haven&#8217;t read the second sex, but I did buy a copy of it recently.  Now i don&#8217;t really want to read it because it seems that I will not be reading what she meant.  Do you still suggest reading it?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90677</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-90677</guid>
		<description>I signed it, but only in the hopes that a better translation will cause dissent and friction within the feminist community as old assumptions and settled battles have to be refought, thus advancing the cause of the patriarchy.

You didn't say anything about having a good motive for signing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I signed it, but only in the hopes that a better translation will cause dissent and friction within the feminist community as old assumptions and settled battles have to be refought, thus advancing the cause of the patriarchy.</p>
<p>You didn&#8217;t say anything about having a good motive for signing!</p>
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		<title>By: The Headpiece for the Staff of Ra</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-262783</link>
		<dc:creator>The Headpiece for the Staff of Ra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/20/a-bit-more-on-the-second-sex/#comment-262783</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-pre%--&gt;enemies with your cat. In fact, you've probably enjoyed the time away from me. Well, too bad. I start three days of travel (don't ask) today, and soon I will be back in Indiana, ready to force you all to read stuff like the following: Not one, buttwo posts on The Second Sex and the assholitry of Random House. A somewhat negative review of King Kong / the jumping up and down some sexist idiots are doing to the gender roles portrayed by a woman and a CGI ape.&lt;!--%kramer-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-pre%-->enemies with your cat. In fact, you&#8217;ve probably enjoyed the time away from me. Well, too bad. I start three days of travel (don&#8217;t ask) today, and soon I will be back in Indiana, ready to force you all to read stuff like the following: Not one, buttwo posts on The Second Sex and the assholitry of Random House. A somewhat negative review of King Kong / the jumping up and down some sexist idiots are doing to the gender roles portrayed by a woman and a CGI ape.<!--%kramer-post%--></p>
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