Fatsuits, Blackface, and Comparing Oppressions
| January 10th, 2006From MTV.com, an article about fatsuits inspired by the current movie Just Friends:
But to the overweight person sitting in the audience, the experience must be similar to a black person watching an old blackface minstrel show. When the character is presented as mean-spiritedly as Mike Myers’ Fat Bastard character from the “Austin Powers” movies or scary-thin Courteney Cox-Arquette’s Fat Monica from flashback episodes of “Friends,” it becomes outright torture.
I ran into the MTV piece via Big Fat Blog. I was particularly struck by this dead-on comment by BFB reader “Shyly”:
Years ago, I went to see The Nutty Professor (Eddie Murphy version) with my friend Phil. After the movie, Phil and I ended up discussing fatphobia, and he remarked that during the worse of the fat jokes in that movie I was squirming in obvious discomfort. So there we were, watching the movie: Me uncomfortable with the anti-fat bigotry on screen, and Phil made uncomfortably aware of the fact that what was on screen was anti-fat bigotry by my presence.
It was a weird dynamic. Probably a bit like going to see a Farrelly Brothers movie with a disabled friend.
That’s two “comparison of oppressions” metaphors in this post: fatsuits and blackface (a comparison that a lot of comment-writers at BFB question), and fat and disability. I’ve already done fat and gay, a little over a year ago.
But of course, no two oppressions are really the same. It’s not even the case that any two fat people necessarily feel the same oppression from anti-fat bigotry. In the comments to another post, Reddecca commented that it had never even occurred to her that fat women and fat men are facing the same oppression; she had always thought of fat-phobia as a women’s issue.
She’s not right - after all, that legislator in Hawaii didn’t suggest that only female fat teachers should be weighed and “dealt with appropriately.” But she’s not wrong, either - a lot of the bigotry experienced by fat women is not merely a meaner form of what men experience, but qualitatively different, because of how fat and gender intersect. (For example, disgust at fatness harms both fat men and women; but it also functions as a way of socially controlling and limiting all women, fat or not. See Naomi Wolf’s wonderful polemic The Beauty Myth - or for that matter, Jill’s recent experiences (see especially Zuzu’s comment)). Both lenses - a feminist lens and a fat acceptance lens - are necessary.
Comparisons are onerous and difficult. On a different comments thread on Big Fat Blog, PCKim, herself both fat and Black, objected to the blackface/fatsuit comparison:
Usually it’s not about just racism as an example it’s racism against black people specifically that’s used as examples here constantly. It’s like do you want to be reminded that you’re not thin every time you look around. We don’t want to be reminded every second we’re a minority in this country, or how the man stuck it to us. We have sites for that type of thing.
PCKim makes a great argument. At the same time, I’d hate to think that the civil rights struggle - surely one of the most important moral movemetns in American history - leaves no lessons that can be applied to other situations. Everything is different, but at the same time, every human life is different from every other life. It doesn’t mean that comparisons are always useless, or that fat people can’t learn anything about our own situation by considering the history of racism and sexism. No oppression is totally the same, but no oppression is totally different, either. (Later in her post, PCKim does seem to say that sometimes comparisons are appropriate).
(Postscript: Be sure to read this excellent post by Reddecca, too.)
January 10th, 2006 at 12:47 pm
The comparison between blackface and fat drag is so self-evident that frankly the backlash against it feels more than a little reactionary to me. As if, there is a feeling that we ought to rank oppressions on which is more worthy of our concern. Black oppression is “real” while fat oppression is almost some kind of idle concern. I’ve seen the same responses directed towards other groups and from other groups. Indeed, even some fat people will not shy away from expressing their disinterest in being compared to gays (much as some gays feel the same in reverse). The thing is, this isn’t a game where one oppression should win. Its like the slavery vs. nazis debate. What value is there to detrimining which is worse? There are always lessons to be learned from what different groups have struggled against, and we should all be free to draw appropriate and informative comparisons where they can illuminate a discussion.
The spectre of fat suits is especially harmful in our culture. The fact that virtually every high profile portrayal of a fat person has really been a thin person wearing stuffing is a very disturbing reality that merits considerable examination. Especially since these depictions are so uniformly mean-spirited. Indeed, this is a point where your comparison to Farallely Brothers movies breaks down. They do hire actual disabled people for those roles, after all. The merits of the depictions aside, that is an important distinction. When they did a story about a fat woman, they hired Gwynth Paltrow and only kept a fat person around as a body double.
I will comment, though, that I’m not sure “Fat Monica” from Friends should qualify as an extreme negative example as the MTV article suggests. Certainly not on par with Myers’ “Fat Bastard”. While I don’t think it is positive, there are some curious aspects of the characterization that give it some nuance. It can be noted that when Monica was fat, she is portrayed as much happier with herself and her life. I don’t think it redeems it, but it is worth noting.
This comment was written by BStu.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
The “comparison” thing gets very tricky.
The trick, as far as I’m concerned, is to remember that while many (or all) different forms of oppression have parallels or similar threads (meaning that, say, I can relate differently to the idea of racism as a white queer woman than I probably would as a white straight dude), the differences are also incredibly important. The specifics of history, especially IMO when you’re talking about the history of racism in this culture, make comparison a limited tool.
I can understand a lot of the frustration that comes from the Black community over this issue — because what tends to happen is that it becomes oversimplified in order to be a “selling point” for tolerance. Anti-gay bias is not just like anti-Black bias, for thousands of historical reasons, and for more than a few current ones — note that I’m relating this through gay stuff precisely because it’s where I come from, but I think that the statement would be true regarding any bigotry. While I agree that we should not ignore the lessons in that history, and we shouldn’t be shy about saying that there are places of intersection, where the similarities in bigotry and reactions to it overshadow the specifics, I also think these comparisons have to be made very, very carefully and with a full understanding that the differences are hugely important factors.
And never forget, especially with the constant comparison to anti-Black racism, that the scale of the thing — hundreds of years first of forced labor then of absolute social and economic exploitation by those in power… so on and so on — means that comparisons really do have to be drawn with an extra bit of care.
All that being said, certainly no oppression (and no one oppression ever “trumps” another) should ever be seen as acceptable, and I’m personally incredibly disturbed by the anti-fat crap floating around right now, and everybody else who values broad social acceptance should be, too.
Just my copper coinage.
This comment was written by spit.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
I think that comparing fat suits to blackface is inevitable since there’s a lack of similar artificially-assumed-minority-ness genres in entertainment (and actually I don’t think fatsuits have yet acquired the genre-ness that blackface seems to have had). It works within the realm of TV and movies… real life, not so much. There isn’t a lot of similarity between racism and sizism, as has been pointed out already.
From what I’ve seen, the treatment of fat people is more like the treatment of alcoholics or drug users but without the benefit of ideas like “addiction” and “genetic predisposition” and maybe “lifelong struggle”. There’s also a certain similarity to popular attiudes toward depression — that you should just get up and fix it. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
But for fat and depression (and even worse, when you have both) it just isn’t that simple. Neither is it that simple for substance abuse, although it seems to me that public opinion has acquired some awareness of that fact.
Just some thoughts.
This comment was written by carlaviii.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
wellll, i don’t agree with making fun of anyone…but fat is not a beauty issue - it is a health issue. period. i just read today that almost 800,000 NYers are diabetic or will be…due to weight issues. not eating right and not exercising. i understand that others lack of care for self inevitably drives up my health care costs. i don’t want to have to pay higher rates for smokers any more than i do for people who on some level refuse to take care of their bodies. i know that overeating can be an emotional issue…but isn’t self control…i mean doesn’t self responsibility come in here somewhere? is our popluation so uneducated that it truly doesn’t understand that it is not a good idea to eat fast food and junk food every day? that it is important to exercise…for your health…not your physical image…it just happens for some to be a happy side effect. i am not making fun of any one, i worked in a health food store for a while and quickly realized how absolutely lazy most of us are…if it doesn’t come in a pill form, but actually requires effort…no one wants to do it. idk. there is something to be said for taking care of the only body you are given…fat, generally speakikng is not healthy. it is hard on the bones, joints, heart, the list goes on and on…our bodies are not equipped to carry around 50-100 pounds over what ones weight range, whether it be fat or muscle. at a basic level it is inefficient - energy is down, cardiovascular health is down (for the majority). again, i don’t agree with making fun of anyone…but for me, this is a health issue and one with serious repercussions. how many children in the US are obese or nearing there - it is astounding and very sad. the quality of life for most people who are overweight is not so great either. be honest, if you cannot walk up a flight of stairs without feeling the need to gasp for air, if you feel liek a toddler is clinging to your back everyday, in every physical activity, it’s limiting. what about sex!!!!!!!!! much better with healthy people!!!
idk. i think it needs to be looked at as a health issue, not one concerning vanity. at some level - it is self abuse. look at some of the bodies you see walking down the street - not to make fun, but from a health angle. you can accept it, but really, is it healthy? are you taking responsibility for your body? are you overeating to the point you are taking resources from others? with at least 1/5 of our population ranked as obese…what are the ramifications for our society for making fat fun? it is unhealthy. i am not talking about the 1% or so with thyroid situations, that is actually a medical condition. but for most of us, it is on whatever level, a choice not to take full responsibility for our physical health.
if one overeats for emotional reasons - how different is this than any other substance abuse? we don’t say alcoholisim should be accepted as a “fun” life choice. our society as a whole disapproves of those who turn to excess in anything - not just food. if it is a food addiction - why try to spin it as fat is fun and sexy? is it an addiction? a self control issue? a self discipline issue? an emotional issue? weight issues can be very difficult to work through, but if someone abuses themselves with food - are they crying out for help? or they just love food so much they don’t stop themselves?
it’s a very complicated issue. no one should be made fun of for physical reasons, but i don’t think obesity should be defended as a “fat is fun” kind of thing. real people die from obesity every year and the numbers are growing…i would like to know how many people in the US die each year from causes related to obesity vs the numbers in other countries who die from starvation.
real scenario: my grandmother was about 50 ounds overweight throughout her life. she is in a nursing home now b/c her weight is such that our family can no longer physically take care of her…this is a reality. she continued to gain as she aged and never really exercised… she could be at home with us except for her weight and the resulting health issues (knees, back, hips). her reality has been determined - where she will die, has been determined in no small part by the fact that she never took care of herself, or rather she never took it seriously. now she is alone in a nursing home and this is probably where she will die. my parents have seen the reality of the obese elderly and how very difficult it is to care for them - they have both started exercising to make sure they don’t end up in the same boat….idk…life choices.
but at the end of the day - if the buck stops with the president(supposedly in matters of responsibility) - where does the buck stop with the individual? if you overeat to the point that you are unable to work…what am i supposed to do about that? i can’t afford to support any one other than myself…to think that i would have to pay for people on disability or welfare…becuase they ate themselves out of a productive lifestyle???!!! hmmm.
This comment was written by d.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 2:30 pm
I (and I suspect other of your readers) wonder whether ‘bigotry’ is really the appropriate term for how our society regards fat people. ‘Bigotry,’ to me, is an extremely strong term that connotes not merely dislike or derogation, but a strong, unreasoning hatred. It’s possible that I’m just unaware of what fat people in America really experience, but I find it hard to believe it really rises to the level of bigotry when you consider that classic examples of bigotry are overt racism and homophobia.
I’d be interested in hearing why you think ‘prejudice’ is not strong enough.
This comment was written by Empiricist.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 2:58 pm
Empiricist - let me assure you, as a fat person that “bigotry” is indeed the correct term.
This comment was written by cynorita.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
d:
It isn’t that simple. I don’t eat fast food or junk food. I walk half an hour every day, rain or shine (the dog will accept nothing less). My daily calorie intake hovers around 2,000.
And yes, I’m almost 300 pounds.
People get fat for many reasons. Some overeat. Some don’t exercise enough. Some have medical problems. Some inherited it from their parents. The problem is, society does not discern between them at all and just says “Fix yourself.” And then it says “Wouldn’t you like some more ice cream?”
Being fat is not “fun” and it never has been, speaking from my own 34 years of experience being fat. I’m not asking anybody to think it’s “fun”. I’d just like the luxury of not having people assume I’m some weak-willed face stuffer that sits on the couch all day crying into my ice cream. I know it’s a lot to ask, but I can dream, can’t I?
I hope that makes sense, because there’s a lot of screaming going on inside my head right now.
This comment was written by carlaviii.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
d - Your post is so full of myths and untruths about fat and fat people, I do not know where to begin.
I will suggest you read some articles from different views than the
one you have been fed by the mainstream media. The push behind most of the things you see in the media today about fat being “bad” is the all mighty dollar.
The reality of fat isn’t even close to what the media and the diet industry push.
On Obesity, What the Researchers Didn’t Find
http://www.techcentralstation.com/100704F.html
An Epidemic of Obesity Myths
http://www.obesityscam.com/
Checking the Obesity Math
http://www.techcentralstation.com/120805F.html
Whoppers and the End of an Epidemic
http://www.techcentralstation.com/042205D.html
Big Fat Mistake
http://www.techcentralstation.com/042105B.html
Some Rare Good News on the Obesity Front
http://www.techcentralstation.com/110805D.html
A diet of hysteria
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CA54B.htm
I have tons more links to articles if you want to read more.
This comment was written by cynorita.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
point taken. i have been overweight and then got sick to the point it was on the other end and i was grossly thin. peoples meaness works both ways. you wouldn’t believe how many big (all women) are incredibly mean to me simply because i am smaller than they are. they judge me as harshly for my weight as others judge them for their excess weight. i get it almost everyday - skinny bitch anyone? and you would be surprised at the rude things people say to smaller folks - i have never hated anyone for the way they looked, but i have been hated for weighing less than another female.
i have to ask, with as much as you do, and have you been tested for a thyroid condition?
one more point i have to make and i am really, really not trying to be mean - i over ate when i was depressed and gained weight which made me even more depressed. but at some point, and this does not count for everyone!!!!!! one has to learn to say no to america asking if you want to super size. one reason i am still small today is that i changed my eating habits. and it was hard. i had to reteach myself using food as a fuel for my body and not an emotional fix. i have been 50+ and i have been a skeleton - bottom line - i was the only one that could change either of those circumstances.
for SOME it is genetic and there are other medical conditions or even medications that cause a weight gain - i find it impossible to believe that thje majority of overweight americans have some kind of medical issue such as a thyroid condition. i simply do not believe the MAJORITY of overweight people watch what they eat, exercise 20 min 4 days a week - i am not buying it. not for the majority - i have worked with the public for too long to buy that. we are a lazy super sizing group. most go home, sit down, eat, go to bed. we ride instead of walk, we buy instead of making it ourselves. we are physically much lazier than our grandparents generation and yet we eat far more calories.
i beleive for the majority, it is a lesson in learning moderation and taking the challenge of dealing with emotional issues using words instead of food. i’m not saying it’s super easy, but it isn’t rocket science either (everything i say here is for the majority of americans, i realize some people, again, genetics and whatnot) but it is not impossible either. idk, is this a victim issue or a choice (for the majority of overweight americans)? i believe that for most people, it is a choice. it’s a choice to say super size it or no fries with that. it is a choice to say, yes or no to the ice cream - and while personally challenging at times - this is called self discipline and for me, self responsibility.
if there are so many people over weight due to eating for emotional reasons - isn’t this something that should be addressed? why are so many americans abusing food in an attempt to make themselves happy? isn’t this in and of itself a problem? food is fuel - it is not a friend or a comfort. somethings taste better than others, but bottom line - fuel. we are in such a place of excess in our society that we use food not to celebrate or nourish, but as a drug to induce some kind of sugar/carb coma where we hope to escape the realities of our lives…by stuffing ourselves until the dull fog sets in. ok, still a choice. no matter why some chose it - they still make the choice. just like people who cmoke tons of cigs make the choice to smoke. and those that drink in excess make the choice to drink everyday. we are a spowerless as we allow ourselves to be. my father drank for a long time and was an alcoholic, he’s been sober for over 30 years - it wasn’t magic, it wasn’t a pill, it was a hard grind adn the every day will and discipline to say no. no one held his hand, no one holds his hand today. he does it through determination. idk.
This comment was written by d.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
As another fat person, let me also condemn the continuing game of who deserves to talk about their oppression concerns. Fat hatred is termed bigotry, and someone immediately must condemn us for the use of the word “bigotry”. As has been explored greatly on this blog, fat hatred mirrors homophobia quite strikingly. While overt violence against fat people is not as common a componant, that is not the only aspect of bigotry. And lets not forget, its more of an issue where anti-gay bigots or racists bigots do not grow out of their desire to use violence against those they hate. It is very common in youth and drives many fat children the depression or suicide.
Beyond that, your standard of an unreasoning hatred is quite precisely what fat people experience. The supposed factual justification for fat hatred is astonishingly weak for something that is so commonly believed. The difficulty with anti-fat bigotry is that our culture regards it largely as a given. Something so obvious that the mere notion of disagreeing is treated with swift and absolute dismissal. There is no reasoning there. I have tried reasoning with anti-fat bigots but it has consistantly been to no avail. Think back to a time, not so very long ago, when the mere suggestion of gay rights of racial equality was quite literally unthinkable. This is the state of anti-fat bigotry today. Most of its adherants don’t obsess over it. They don’t think much about it at all. It just is. Indeed, many fat people themselves are eager proponants of this bigoted thinking (a rather unique circumstance amongst disenfranchised groups to this degree).
Witness, for example, the post from “d” above. This line of response is what fat people who ask for respect can expect to receive. Its not that they hate us. They just cannot tolerate our existance because our existance is bad and there is nothing you can say to shake them of that belief. We were discussing media portrayals (or rather the lack of them) of fat people, but “d” sees fit to threaten us unapologetic fat people with death. These are the stakes fat people must deal with in these discussions. We decry the cruel derision of thin people masquarading as fat people to mock us, and someone will always respond with “Yes, but you’re going to die.” Always. Heaven forbid the discussion actually look critically at this weak justification. Otherwise well-meaning folks will be driven to fits as they deny our right to disagree with them. Deny the facts we put before them. Deny our right to expect fair and equal treatment.
Fat people are denied jobs, education, quality health care. These are civil rights concerns. And “but fat is bad” is always the justification. It is always what we must respond to, and no response will ever suffice. Indeed, how can one debate with someone who concerns our state of being to be self-abuse, as “d” suggests. Think about what an awful suggestion that is. “d” is presuming fat people to be morally inferior. It is a common view which thinks that our bodies are proof of our moral inferiority. We are presumed to be “substance abusers”. If we point out that we aren’t, we are called liars. That is bigotry. This is what fat people go through. No, this is not exactly alike to any other oppressed group, but drawing comparisons where they are appropriate is not the same thing as saying two groups are exactly alike.
As I’ve indicated, there are a number of unique struggles fat people face. The fact that so many fat people support the bigotry is a condition that I cannot find a parallel. Its level of popular acceptance is also unusual in contemporary society, though it does have historical counterparts. This forces fat activists to wage the most basic fights against justifications for hatred that have long been discredited for other brands of bigotry. But, indeed, there is little direct violence against fat adults. However, the medical establishment has devised a “treatment” for our “condition” which has been shown to kill 1 in 20 patients and which gravely diminishes quality of life for others. Yet again, fat people are eager to sign up for such procedures. The media feels a deep need to “balance” any story about fat acceptance with an unquestioning presentation of anti-fat bigotry, but will never offer balance in the reverse. This differences are important and merit discussion. But going over all of them every time a comparison is drawn seems little more than punative. Of course these differences exist. One shouldn’t have to catalog them all every time one sees a similarity worth noting.
This comment was written by BStu.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
ok, except that i have been overweight and i know what that felt like. there is no comparison to how i felt being 50 over weight and how i feel now - none. it’s like i was carrying around a backpack all day long!!!!!! there are articles that say fat is ok there are articles that say it isnt. it seems to change with the tides….i don’t really listen to modern docs - they are mainly drug dealers.
for me, it is about health - about cholesterol, fat content, blood pressure, heart health and mobility. i do not see how one can argue that someone who is extremely overweight “feels” good, that it doesn’t hinder and restrict ones mobility and availability of life choices. and i mean physically feels good. as opposed to weighted down, tired, uncomfortable, low self image. do the majority of overweight americans feel good about themselves adn their health? do they feel better when they lose weight that has been troubling them? does their energy level go up? do they “do” more in general? as a before and after, which do they prefer? for those that have successfully lost weight and kept it up, do they feel good about themselves? why?
is anyone here going to argue that someone within their weight range who exercises and eats right isnt healthier than someone who eats at mcd’s several times a week, doesn’t exercise and is say 150 over weight?
and that certain types of disorders can be prevented through diet and exercise…and that as more of our children become obese they also have a higher incidencde of diabetes?
opinions :) we all got em :)
This comment was written by d.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 4:16 pm
Witness, for example, the post from “d” above. This line of response is what fat people who ask for respect can expect to receive. Its not that they hate us. They just cannot tolerate our existance because our existance is bad and there is nothing you can say to shake them of that belief. We were discussing media portrayals (or rather the lack of them) of fat people, but “d” sees fit to threaten us unapologetic fat people with death.
just to clear up a…uhh, i don’t know what - first, i don’t hate anyone…esp not b/c of how they look. and umm, i am not threatening anyone with death…seemed a logical follow through, kind of like if you smoke a couple packs a day, you may get lung cancer…still your choice. however, i did seem to change the thread and that was not my intention.
yes, go back to the media issue…much better…maybe people won’t feel so personally attacked, that was not my intention. we are all sensitive about our personal issues and battles. i obviously did not communicate clearly or sensitively enough.
This comment was written by d.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
I can’t argue that every single overweight person feels good, of course, but I can tell you that I feel all right, physically. I have regular blood tests and the numbers come back fine. My thyroid is OK. My BP is on the high end of normal, but still normal. I walk, I climb stairs, I can pick up a 50 pound dog when she doesn’t want to go see the vet. Can I run a mile? Probably not. Does that affect my availability of lifestyle choices?
Eating right and exercising will make *anyone* healthier, regardless of weight. I don’t think anyone is going to argue that. Eating at McD’s and not exercising makes *anyone* less healthy, regardless of weight. You don’t hear much about that side of things, though.
Personally, I think everyone should take care of themselves — and realize that taking care of yourself will not get everybody the same result.
Low self image? I grew up overweight. Nuff said.
This comment was written by carlaviii.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
d said “is anyone here going to argue that someone within their weight range who exercises and eats right isnt healthier than someone who eats at mcd’s several times a week, doesn’t exercise and is say 150 over weight?”
Lets turn it around and see if you like the way it reads.
Is anyone here going to argue that someone who exercises and eats right and is 150 pounds “over weight” isn’t healthier than someone who eats at mcd’s several times a week, doesn’t exercise and is “normal weight”?
This comment was written by cynorita.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
carlaviii makes a really important, and generally neglected, point in the whole thing, as far as I’m concerned — weight may, but also sometimes does not, correlate with overall health, given that health as a broad thing can’t be broken down into a couple of handy-dandy factors based on a few numbers.
I have dated people that were considered, by many, overweight, yet who were frankly far healthier people than most. Ate fairly well, exercised regularly, overall in better shape than most of us. One friend of mine comes to mind — she’s just built BIG. But she’s far healthier overall — even nutritionally — than I am, frankly, while I’m supposedly near my “ideal” weight.
The people pushing the “but we’re maligning you for your own good!” crap are (1) incredibly condescending thinking that they can emotionally beat people into leading their concept of a healthy lifestyle and (2) utterly missing the point that health is about a whole lotta shit, and while yes many Americans have weight issues relating to poor overall health (poor diet, no exercise, eg), it does not logically follow that everyone who gets placed as “overweight” on our weird little standardized scale is, in fact, particularly unhealthy.
Maybe those folks really need to take that “I know what’s best for others” energy and go push people to eat more veggies instead. Because from what I can tell, Americans’ eating patterns give some pretty piss-poor nutrition, and that’s about a lot more than fat and calories. But I guess as long as you look skinny, we figure culturally that you’re “healthy” — whatever that means.
This comment was written by spit.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
What I find so interesting about the fat suit forays is that so many of them seem to be motivated by sympathy and curiosity, but end up being one big ol’ fat joke, out of sheer discomfort and fear of associating too closely with the pariah. In the same bassackward way, I think some whites who adopted blackface believed they were doing a good thing, in making an effort to humanize black people to a hostile, white audience.
When “Shallow Hal” came out, the Farrelly Brothers argued that the movie was fat-positive —”a valentine to fat people.” I was actually surprised how much I enjoyed it, once I choked down the cheap fat humor. The Rosemary character was actually interesting and dignified in a lot of ways. The thing that feels weirdest to me about characters like Rosemary and fat Monica on “Friends” is that the writers clearly like them, but they can’t seem to restrain the urge to distance themselves with cheap digs - as if they suddenly remember they’d better make fun of this woman’s fat ass, or the hyenas might take them down with her.
Honestly, I think this is the best a bunch of nerdy white guys can do (and that’s the whole power base of the entertainment industry), toward demonstrating empathy toward anyone who isn’t like them, or who it wouldn’t raise their status to have sex with. It’s not surprising to me that the Farrelly brothers would feel they had created a sympathetic character in Rosemary - but they also made her a freak, and without doing that, I don’t think they would have been comfortable allowing her the amount of humanity that they did.
d - most of the issues you raised re: fat and health were addressed extensively in the “fat vs. gay” threads Amp wrote last year (and comments) - and, well, actually, in pretty much any fat thread that has run here. There is always someone who says “but fat is unhealthy!” and often, additionally “I was fat, so I know!” It gets tiresome having to address whether or not fat is healthy whenever anything fat-related comes up. Anyroad, I’d recommend reading those past threads and comments.
Best,
This comment was written by Mary Garden.MG
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January 10th, 2006 at 6:23 pm
Well, gosh, d, I’ve been thin and fat so I know what both feel like, too. So maybe you should presume that you have been endowed with some special knowledge because you seem to be in the 1% of the population who is maintaining a weight loss (of a whopping 50lbs no less!). Maybe, just maybe, your weight loss doesn’t give you the right to condemn any over 200lbs of being self-abusive. But I guess you must know better than all of us, huh.
I’ve been fat and thin. I ate the same in both states, and was physically active in both states. Want to know what? Both states feel remarkably the same. Oh, and I’m 85lbs over what I used to weigh so I guess I must know better than you by 35lbs!
Eating a moderate and healthy diet (very different from a weight loss or weight loss maintance diet) and being reasonably active are healthy for everyone. And they haven’t been shown to make people significantly thinner (if any thinner). But they have been shown to improve health for all people, fat and thin. Your insulting comparison reveals your bigotry, d. No one is going to make your hypothetical arguement d, and that fact that you seem to think that is representative of those who disagree with fat bigotry speaks volumes. What I will argue is that the health of a fat person who eats well and stays active and that of a thin person who eats well and stays active isn’t substantially different. I will also argue that the health of a thin person who eats only fast food and is sedentary and that of a fat person who does them will also not be substantially different.
I will also argue that your morbid condemnations of your slightly fat grandmother is insulting to all fat people. I’ll argue that calling fat people self-abusive if not a respectful way to engage a discussion and warrents you no respect in return. I have no patience for the kind of hatred fat people are expected to put up with from people like you. If you were attacking gay people in the same manner, no gay person would be expected to grovel at your non-apparent but much professed “sensitivity”. I will do you no favors because the object of your diatribes are a culturally approved target. I see little reason to apologize to people who respond to my body in such an insulting manner, and you are no different “d”. If you want to examine why I respond to your posts as I did, you can look for the answer in the content of your posts. You did a perfectly good job communicating the limits of your sensitivity. I simply pointed them out.
This comment was written by BStu.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
I think it’s worth noting that, to the extent that resentment of the overweight stems from concerns (valid or otherwise) about the imposition of medical costs of obesity on society at large, this wouldn’t be an issue if our medical system wasn’t so highly collectivized. I do resent people whose poor health habits drive up my taxes and insurance premiums, though I have no idea to what extent the obese fall into this category.
Carlaviii:
Walking isn’t enough. Resistance exercise—with heavy weights, not with soup cans—is an important part of any serious health regimen. Among other benefits, it increases insulin sensitivity and helps to restore the muscle mass that can be destroyed by years of yo-yo dieting. Aside from speeding up your metabolism and assisting in weight loss, this can help to protect you from strength loss in your old age.
Stumptuous.com is a good resource for…well…anyone, really, but it was written primarily for women by Krista Scott-Dixon, a licensed and bonded feminist (the hyphen tells you she’s legit!). There’s advice specifically for fat people here.
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January 10th, 2006 at 6:46 pm
Krista rocks. I wouldn’t sell machines short, though, particularly if you have bad knees or are just starting out. Anyway. Go. Look. Read.
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January 10th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
I gotta say, I think this rationale for fatphobia is a false one. I mean, smoking is incredibly unhealthy, but smokers aren’t exposed to the same level of loathing. If they were, I wouldn’t know so many people who are paranoid about gaining a few pounds once they quit smoking. And people wouldn’t be engaging in so many unhealthy strategies to keep from gaining a few extra pounds.
And to follow-up to my last comment: Krista is a great resource for anyone who wants to learn safe and effective weight-training. However, neither carlaviii nor anyone else on this thread–at any weight–should feel any pressure from me to do so. Feel free to keep walking. In fact, feel free to stop walking and sit at home with a tub of ice cream. Your life is none of my business, and to pretend otherwise is to engage in anti-fat bigotry.
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January 10th, 2006 at 7:33 pm
And remember, carlavii, if some random guy who blames fat people for his health care costs tells you that you are properly active, he must know what he’s talking about. I have little doubt, Brandon, that you felt empowered to make such a self-important judgement because carlavii admited to being fat. And us fatties need to be told what’s what, right? What with us being a drain on your lifestyle and all with our increasing health care costs because, well, we’re fat so we must just do that or something. Wal-Mart said so, so it must be true.
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January 10th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
Whoa, BStu’s on fire tonight. Thanks :)
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January 10th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
Hey, if someone would come to my house and do the laundry, clean up, cook dinner and feed the animals — for free — I’ll use the time for weight training. :)
Or, if I can clear enough space on the floor, take up yoga again.
This comment was written by carlaviii.Report this comment to the moderators
January 10th, 2006 at 10:14 pm
I seem to remember Amp sticking a ‘no bringing up “but being fat is unhealtheee!” arguments in this thread’ on some previous fat discussion threads that weren’t intended to be rebutals of that argument. I think this thread is a reminder of why that was a good idea.
While watching d’s arguments get stomped is fun, and there is some very good stomping being done, I think d’s argument is nothing more than a derailment of the thread topic. “Being fat is unhealthy!” is the “but men get raped too!” of fat threads.
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January 10th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
My impression is that smokers are loathed more than fat people. (This may be a UK thing). The trend here is for smoking in public to become increasingly proscribed, and there is considerable support for this among non-smokers.
The difference is that smoking degrades the immediate environment in a way which is both unpleasant and unhealthy.
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January 10th, 2006 at 11:28 pm
There is a world of difference between the scorn doled out to someone lighting up and that leveled against fat people. Perhaps the treatment of fat people is much better in the UK, but to be honest I’ve heard and seen nothing to suggest that. Fat people are discriminated in the workplace, in their personal lives, subjected to intense ridicule throughout childhood and regretably often right into adulthood. All the while, there is a multi-billion dollar industry dedicated to ensuring that fat people are treated thusly and selling their appropriate product. A smoker may get some nasty looks, but I cannot imagine they are given the degree of self-righteous condemnations fat people see in their daily lives. This, inspite of the fact that the link between smoking and poor health is enormously more established than the supposedly much graver risks of being fat. When you put the pack away, no one may know someone is a smoker. I cannot put my fat away.
It struck me as appropriate that my trip home on the train was under the constant watchful eye of a poster designed to mock and ridicule my body in the promotion of some manner of weight loss product. This is what fat people go through everyday. We turn on the TV and there are ads showcasing results not typical. Magazines touting how we can halve ourselves. Posters that poke fun at us. This is another unique aspect of anti-fat bigotry. I cannot think of a modern (or historical, for that matter) counterpart. Only fat people have to contend with an industry making billions of dollars directly off fat hatred. Not indirectly through exploitation or something, but literally by packaging and selling fat hate and fat people are the customers. I certainly can’t think of a parallell to at such a scale.
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January 11th, 2006 at 3:49 am
I am sure that many over weight people face bigotry on a daily basis, and I feel for them.
I have always been a skinny person (jockey stock) and as a guy have had to deal with negative comments about being small, or “you need to eat more” (I eat a lot but never put on weight, very fast system) So I do empthasise with the pressure others can put on you.
But I would never compare it to Race, gender or sexuality and the discrimination that people can face in these issues, as these are things that you cannot change about yourself, you will always be Black and you cannot change that.
I could if I had the motivation get myself to the gym, work on some weights bulk up, and an over weight person can make steps to change themsleves if they wish.
This is why I feel it is viewed different to these other forms of predjudice, I am not saying this is right or wrong, just stating why many will not see it as a valid comparison.
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January 11th, 2006 at 6:22 am
easier for the audience to laugh at the fat person if they know that the actor underneath is actually trim. Eddie Murphy in “The Nutty Professor” remakes; Julia Roberts in “America’s Sweetheart”; Martin Lawrence in “Big Momma’s House”; Kenan [...]Continue reading at Alas, a blog … posted 12:33 pm at Alas, a blog
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January 11th, 2006 at 7:02 am
So would you compare it to discrimination based on religion, which is something people can change?
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January 11th, 2006 at 8:01 am
Another difference is in the very definition of “fat.” The sitcom wife must be underweight. The sitcom husband often has a “beer gut” at the very least. And this dichotomy plays out in real life too; women are held to a different standard of “fat” and “thin” than are men.
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January 11th, 2006 at 8:31 am
Interesting. But I don’t see many ads on TV telling me I need to change my religion. All of the religious discrimination I’ve seen (against, say Moslems) tends to be tied up in their greater cultural background (they’re Arab), which is the main target of the discrimination.
And I agree, gender does have a large effect on what sort of anti-fat message one receives — but both genders do get a heaping plateful of it. Yes, sitcom dads are allowed a beer gut but then again, a lot of sitcom dads are portrayed as pretty clueless. (I don’t watch sitcoms, so maybe I’m off base, but that’s the impression I get from the thousands of ads)
Fat men are stripped of their sexuality, same as women. They’re assumed to be lacking the “willpower” to work the weight off, just like women. They have trouble finding clothes that fit, they have trouble squeezing into airplane seats, they feel the same shame about their bodies. I think there’s supposed to be an extra sting because of the “men are always in control” stereotype that isn’t applied so much to women (which is bullsh*t).
This comment was written by carlaviii.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 8:46 am
A lot of fat people seem to be very defensive about fatness, which is completely understandable, considering the prejudice that they face.
Still, is it quite right to go to the opposite extreme of pretending that fatness is completely irrelevant to health, that fatness doesn’t affect the way anyone feels, etc., etc.?
I know for a fact that if you pay attention to your body, you can tell a difference in how you feel with a mere 20 pound difference in weight — you feel like you have more of a spring in your step, climbing a flight of stairs isn’t as hard, etc. When someone says that they can’t tell any difference between a normal weight and 75+ pounds overweight, I just don’t believe it. You wouldn’t feel a difference if someone strapped a 75-pound backpack on your back? That’s impossible. What’s really going on there is that the change was so gradual that the person just forgot what it felt like at the other weight.
As for health, I think we’re missing something here. Yes, it is possible for fat people to be healthier than thin people — if you imagine a fat person who eats a modest healthy diet and exercises contrasted with the thin person who never exercises and who eats fast food all the time. But come on: most people don’t fall into those categories. On average, people who eat healthier diets and get some real exercise (I don’t mean sauntering around the block) are going to be thinner.
Let me put it this way: I’ve worked out in gymnasiums for the past 15 years or so, in several different states. I have almost never seen a genuinely fat person who was making any kind of serious effort to exercise. I have seen fat people sitting on exercise bikes going at such a leisurely pace that they’re barely burning any more calories than if they were asleep.
Conversely, I’ve known a lot of fat people, including in my own family (so please don’t accuse me of “hate” or “bigotry”). I’ve never known a fat person who 1) genuinely ate a healthy diet of lean meats, fresh vegetables and fruits, and whole grains (which any of us should be eating); and 2) made a serious effort to exercise. No, strike that: I’ve never known a person who could manage to stay fat if they 1) genuinely ate a healthy diet of lean meats, fresh vegetables and fruits, and whole grains; and 2) made a serious effort to exercise. Everyone that I’ve ever known who really does those things ends up losing some weight. Not that they become stick-thin, but that’s not the goal. The point is, I just don’t really believe that all fat people are genuinely eating a healthy and controlled diet, exercising vigorously (not just a stroll around the block), but are completely unable to lose weight.
Maybe you are the one exception to that rule. If so, that’s ok. But the fact is, when millions of Americans are overweight, this is a clear sign that 90+% of them aren’t exercising enough and aren’t eating healthy diets.
* * *
Finally, this has been hinted at, but it deserves repetition. If being fat is just a matter of genetics/hormones/whatever, why are so many more Americans overweight now than 100 years ago? Did the biology of the American body change that much over the past 100 years? Or is it because we changed from a farm society to a couch-potato society?
Or put it this way: Why are so many Americans overweight compared to some tribal societies where zero people are overweight? Maybe it could be because we live in an automobile-and-fast-food society, while they live in a society where food is more scarce and people do a lot of walking everywhere?
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January 11th, 2006 at 9:06 am
Just to be clear, let me emphasize one point: The goal of life shouldn’t be to lose weight. The goal should be to be healthy.
My point is that health and weight often really do go together. The obese person who eats a truly healthy diet and gets some vigorous exercise (lifting weights, running 30 minutes 4 or 5 times per week) usually won’t stay obese. And the person who never exercises and just eats fast food is often going to become overweight. (Have you never known any of the zillions of people who became gradually more and more overweight as they aged? Do you think that this is because of a genetic condition that causes people to gain a couple of pounds a year between the ages of 30 and 50?)
Let me put it this way: If you look at the 40-pound overweight person who exercises regularly compared to the non-overweight person who never exercises, the first is going to be more “healthy.” No question about that. And if you’re the 40-pound overweight person, and you really do exercise vigorously and still can’t lose weight, don’t worry about it.
But at the same time, when you look across the country, there’s no way that most of the overweight people are really getting any kind of regular exercise or eating a healthy diet. If that was really happening on a broad scale, we’d see a lot more runners on the road; McDonald’s would go out of business; etc., etc.
So to sum up, the message that the average overweight person needs to hear is not:
1. Lose weight at all costs, because weight in and of itself is harmful.
But nor is it:
2. Who cares if you’re overweight? Fat is fine, and anyone who talks about health is just bigoted.
The real message should be:
3. Eat right — lean meats, fresh produce, whole grains, little or no sugar or saturated fats, healthy oils (olive oil, etc.). Exercise VIGOROUSLY — 20 or 30 minutes of hard running, 4 or 5 times per week, plus lifting weights. If you do that, your weight doesn’t really matter.
(Of course, MOST people who really follow message # 3 are inevitably going to lose at least some weight.)
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January 11th, 2006 at 9:13 am
I wouldn’t be too quick to dismiss the throid issue. Hypothyroidism (low thyroid function) is not a rare condition at all — in 2001, there were 1.75 million incidents of hypothyroidism v. 15,000 incidents of cancer.
Last summer, I decided to get serious about losing weight. Modified my diet, took up running 2-3 miles a couple of times a week. I lost NOTHING. And I didn’t feel any more energetic for all the effort. I was still tired all the time.
This last fall, I was diagnosed with a seriously low thyroid function, so that explains a lot of the symptoms.
Seriously, if you are gaining weight, and also have symptoms of fatigue, depression, vision and hearing problems, puffiness around the eyes, etc. have your thyroid checked.
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January 11th, 2006 at 9:41 am
The “but you can change” justification for bigotry, Wookie, is a smokescreen. Gay people can “change”. Indeed, they can change FAR more easily than fat people. While diets fail upwards of 99% of the time, all a gay person need do is not date a person of the same gender. There is no pill to take, no surgery that kills 1 in 20 gay people, no need to obsessively monitor something they need to do all the time like breathe. They just don’t act on their sexual desire. A far easier use of “will-power” than controlling eating, something we need to do. Especially since there is no proof that fat people eat more than thin people to begin with. So, does that mean we shouldn’t really care about homophobia? I mean, you said you wouldn’t compare them, but why not if gays can “change”.
When diets fail 99% of the time, then change is a myth. When 90% of failed diets result in more weight being regained than had been lost, change is a myth. When the “miracle” being pushed on fat people leaves 1 in 20 dead in only the first year, then change is a myth.
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January 11th, 2006 at 9:48 am
[double post deleted]
This comment was written by Nona.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 9:48 am
What do you mean, “diets fail 99% of the time”? Everyone — not just fat people — should ideally be eating a healthy diet that leaves out fast food, processed flours and sugars, sugary drinks, etc., and instead consists of lean meat (if any at all), fresh produce, whole grains, olive oil, etc. What does it mean for that kind of “diet” to “fail”?
Aren’t you really talking about fad diets that people try for a month and then quit? Hence studies find that their “diet” didn’t “work” years later. Well, big surprise.
That doesn’t affect my point. If people would actually eat a healthy diet (like the one I recommend), they’d be much better off. And if they then quit the healthy diet, it isn’t the DIET that “failed.”
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January 11th, 2006 at 9:50 am
Sorry about the double post — it looked like the post failed the first time.
[No big deal - it happens all the time. --Amp]
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January 11th, 2006 at 10:03 am
I am also very weary of people like Nona who stand for the same old fat hate but who are certain of their correctness that they imagine that they actually represent the “middle ground”. They define the “middle ground” of course, as a complete and unmitigated condemnation of fat people. Just so long as you act like you’re not being mean about it. They belittling define fat acceptance as extreme and draw the parallel as hyperbolic fat hatred. That’s not a fair comparison and its certainly not a centrist position to basically agree with everything the fat hate side has to say and only offer token concessions that usually are little more than self-serving affirmations of fat hate to begin with and really concede nothing to what fat acceptance is saying. No, Nona. You are not a centrist. You stand on the side of fat bigotry whether you know it or not. You are standing up for a position because it is what everyone says is true and you figure if everyone is saying it, it must be right. No, I don’t think you sat down and decided to disrespect fat people. No, I don’t think you made a deliberate decision to expouse a hateful ideology. But you’re still doing it. This is the challenge fat people face. A lot of perfectly well-meaning people reject what we have to say sight unseen. They’ll say, “Well, maybe its not quite as awful as the worse fat haters say, but you’re still wrong in every way that matters.” They say it with an absolute certainty that is astounding hard to argue with. They look at us as if we are trying to say that water is dry and the sky is green. All the while using hateful and insulting words like “obese” and “overweight” without every pausing to consider the judgementalism of their chosen language. Most people who stand up for fat hate never think about it. They just assume it. They aren’t passionate warriors for fat hate. Just a sea of foot soldiers following orders.
The message should be that the focus on weight has utterly failed fat people for decades and it needs to be undone. The health concerns of fat people (and all people, for that matter) will be best persued by adopting “Health at any size” principles and encouraging not only healthy and moderate eating but also healthy relationships with food without any positve or negative stigmas. People need to learn how to listen to their bodies and have a normal relationship with food. And people should be encouraged to maintain moderate and achievable activity levels with excercise they enjoy and can make a natural part of their lives rather than a chore or something that offers a significant risk of injury. This approach HAS been shown to improve health dramatically. But guess what… it hasn’t been shown to induce weight loss. Saying, “eat right and excercise and don’t worry about weight” is a strong message, but not when it is given the addition, “that’s the best way to lose weight”. All you are doing is continuing to put the focus on weight but creating an elaborate facade where you pretend not be focusing weight. That’s not a change. That’s the same approach that has discouraged so many fat people from persuing their health in achievable ways. Because they are always told, its really the weight that matters. They are always told healthy means thinner. You may think you rejected that thinking, but you agreed with it a second after rejecting it. A fat person can do all the right things, but when they see that they haven’t lost weight, they will become discouraged and many will give up such good actions. Because they are told it doesn’t matter if they are fat. Weight needs to be taken out entirely. There is no justification for stigmatizing fat people in the name of health. It has had nothing but a negative impact on the health of fat people and its high time it stopped.
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January 11th, 2006 at 10:19 am
In context, it seemed clear to me that BStu was saying that weight-loss diets fail 99% of the time.
Of course, it depends on how you define “failure” and “success.” However, if “success” is defined as turning a fat person into a non-fat person for at least five years, then BStu is correct. No weight-loss plan has ever been shown in a peer-reviewed study to reliably lead to significant, long-term weight loss.
All weight-loss plans that have been tested in a legitimate peer-designed study fail for well over 95% of users, if the goal is to make someone who is fat no longer fat. That’s true not only of “fad” diets but also true of allegedly more sensible weight-loss diets.
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January 11th, 2006 at 10:50 am
Do those studies examine whether the person actually *stuck to the diet*? I mean, are there any studies that find the following:
People who start eating little meat, lots of fresh produce, little or no sugar (in drinks or otherwise), and only healthy oils, and who KEEP TO THAT HEALTHY DIET for the next five years, nonetheless do NOT lose any weight and experience no difference in health after 5 years of sticking to that diet.
I could be wrong, obviously, but I’m very skeptical that there any studies that find any such thing. What I’ve seen are studies that say something more like, “Someone who tries Jenny Craig for 3 months and then quits doesn’t have any long-lasting benefit.” To which I say, knock me over with a feather.
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January 11th, 2006 at 11:05 am
Well, what does it tell you, if 99% of people can’t stay on a “healthy” diet?
If a teacher gives a test, and 99% of the students fail, then it’s hard to say that’s the students’ fault. It’s more likely that either the test is too hard or the teacher failed to teach the correct things well enough.
This comment was written by Emily H..Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 11:11 am
Emily — A lot of fad diets are too weird, or they require you to count cards of calories, or to follow particular recipes, or other requirements that are too tedious in the long run. The healthy diet that I’ve been describing is not the same thing — just follow a few simple rules: Avoid sugar; avoid processed flour; go for the fresh fruits and vegetables whenever possible; avoid saturated fats. This is very simple, and is by no means beyond the capacities of 99% of people. Heck, you can even eat at McDonald’s, if you pick the garden salad with a low-fat dressing, or maybe the yogurt/fruit. It’s not that hard to do.
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January 11th, 2006 at 11:30 am
I agree with Nona… To a certain point.
Nona writes (#32):
(emphasis added)
I don’t think overweight persons “need to hear” the message #3 (certainly not #1 or #2) any more than thin- or average weight persons need to hear it (that is, I think everyone needs to hear it, but I’d probably leave the part “vigorously”). This is the problematic part: That people assume overweight people aren’t currently doing that, and thin or average are.
And how does one define overweight? Looking at people or BMI? BMI is ridiculous anyway, many, many athletes who exercise religiously and have on optimum diet for their sport (especially ones involved in sports that require strength/physical contact) are overweight by BMI. Many people who don’t exercise and eat unhealthy food are thin (I have always been thin, I was thin when I didn’t exercise and ate crappily, I’m still thin but now I am in good health and I feel I can do more with my body. That feels good.) . And judging a book by its cover is usually a bigoted way of making judgement.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that the tie-breaker for me in Fat Acceptance is whether it advocates for unhealthiness or passive acceptance of unhealthiness or not. Luckily it doesn’t seem to necessarily do that, which is why I’m ok with it. This is what I believe on other health issues too, “do what you will to your own body no matter how unhealthy” is consistent with private, invidualized health-care, but with socialized, public health-care (that I support, in theory and in practice) awareness raising and suggesting people to give up unhealthy lifestyles is sensible. And I’m not saying, I repeat that being fat in itself=unhealthy lifestyle.
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January 11th, 2006 at 11:36 am
Nona- you make some good points, and sure weight is a factor in overall health. But it is one of a very large number of factors, and I think where I personally get really pissed is when it becomes the focus — say, with things like the low-carb diets, for example, in which weight is certainly lost, but likely with the high price of nasty effects on the heart and circulatory system.
If you placed me, again near my “ideal” weight right now, next to the larger friend I referenced above, and asked anyone which one of us was “healthier”, they’d say me. They’d be utterly, utterly wrong. I eat like crap most of the time, go through long phases of very little exercise, I smoke and drink far too much, bla bla bla. She, on the other hand, does everything pretty much right… but has some extra pounds that are just part of her build.
-That- is a sign that while weight can certainly be involved in health, it has also become inseperable, socially, from bigotry or bias or whatever we call it (I’m not interested in semantics right now) that prevents people from seeing the whole person’s health rather than seeing their “bad” fatness.
I also think that while our cultural diet is downright nasty right now, and we should be doing something about it, and I agree that it leads to larger problems statistically with obesity/weight problems, again it simply does not follow that an individual who is “overweight” is significantly likely to be more or less healthy than a person who is not — there are just too many factors in that. And A leads to B does not mean that B leads to A. Eating McD’s is unhealthy whether it leads to weight gain or no.
As an absolute aside, I can tell that very few of you are smokers — because smokers are absolutely treated with this kind of contempt and condescention. I can rarely get through an entire day without some total stranger lecturing me on my nasty habit. I recently read somewhere that a few employers are starting to refuse to hire smokers — I will search for the link.
No matter what you think about health issues, there’s just no reason to treat people with some of the attitudes I see around smoking, either.
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January 11th, 2006 at 11:40 am
Also, ditto to Tuomas’s point that the very definition of “overweight” is basically bunk. BMI is stoopid for more reasons than I want to go off about right at this moment.
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January 11th, 2006 at 11:42 am
d writes:
You know what your experience was like, but nobody has any business assuming that their own experience of being fat is or was just like anybody else’s experience. You know what it felt like for YOU. You do not know what it feels like for others.
You need to learn that the concepts of health and fat are totally different. There are fat unhealthy people. There are thin unhealthy people. There are thin healthy people. There are fat healthy people. The mainstream media has constantly pushed the idea of “fat=unhealthy” for decades, and I’m afraid you’ve bought right into it. It isn’t true. The relationship between fat and health is incredibly complicated, and fat people deserve more respect than unquestioning acceptance of the “fat=unhealthy” idea.
Is that because your own experience was different? If you want to imagine how someone very fat can feel good, then try listening to fat people about their experiences. You’ll hear a variety of experiences.
If you would like to hear about a positive experience and are open-minded to the idea that there are some fat people who feel good about themselves, then I’ll tell you that I as a very fat person feel good about myself. I feel pretty good, physically. I don’t feel particularly weighed down, I don’t feel tired unless I could do with going to bed and sleeping, I don’t feel uncomfortable, and I certainly don’t have a low self-image.
Who knows? I would imagine not, given how hard the media try to make fat people feel bad about themselves. But who cares? Even if it were a minority of fat Americans (or those of another nationality) that felt good about themselves, why would that justify such condemnations and assumptions about fat people?
You are asking the wrong questions. If you are GENUINELY concerned about health, rather than fat (uncommon though that is) then the question you should be asking is how is it possible to help people to good health and feeling good about themselves? (Notice that size doesn’t figure in there.)
Oh that one’s easy to answer. They don’t manage to lose weight, at least not many people do for any significant amount of time. So the question is irrelevant.
Notice how to try and get a comparison that reflects your views, you have added some healthy lifestyle descriptors to the slim person, and you’ve added some unhealthy lifestyle descriptors to the fat person. You’re not being very fair, are you?
Notice how you’ve shifted away from “fat” onto the issues of eating and exercise. Notice once more that these are different issues from that of “fat”.
To answer the question, there are all sorts of disorders that can be prevented through all sorts of unusual combinations of eating and exercise habits. This doesn’t prove anything about your views about fat.
Certainly diabetes is becoming more common, and if you’re trying to argue for health improvements concerning diabetics and prevention of diabetes, fine. But note that you don’t have to bang on about obesity. You can be pro-health measures just fine without trying to make fat people feel bad about themselves by tying obesity to diabetes.
This comment was written by Sharon.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 11:49 am
Nona,
None of what you are saying justifies approaching fat people with this righteous battering ram of health information. I agree that the American lifestyle is very unhealthy, but fat people are not the only ones living that lifestyle by a long chalk, and I disagree with you strenuously about the notion that thin people all eat healthy diets of grains and vegetables and go to the gym regularly. They eat fast food and drive around in SUVs too. It’s not good for any of us, so why not level your crusading attitude at the system rather than at individuals and bring about positive change for everyone?
Also, as to why you never see fat people in the gym - most of the fat people I know, women especially, would rather die than exercise under scrutiny. When I started exercising (I’m one of the virtuous fat people), I hid in the basement and threw a rubber playground ball at the wall for an hour every night. No one could see me, I was not surrounded by disco and mirrors and sneering skinny people who were evaluating my performance and deciding whether or not I was exercising hard enough. It was still hard, because *I* knew what I looked like exercising, and loathed myself for it. By the way, a fat person doesn’t have to move as fast as a thin person to burn off the same number of calories - that’s one of the advantages of carrying extra weight.
Another point I like to bring up to people who argue that it’s okay to look at a fat person and judge them not healthy and in need of remedial hectoring by thin busybodies, is what about someone like me? I exercise 2-4 hours a day and eat 2000 cal - I’ve lost 120 lbs, but I am still a “big” girl. I’ve had to turn my life upside down and set aside other, honestly more important goals in order to dedicate as much focus and energy as I’ve needed to dedicate in order to pull this off. I am lucky I have no dependents, plenty of money and only work 30 hours a week. I am lucky I live in a city that is safe enough for me to go running at night and where it’s easy to ride a bike everywhere. I am lucky I can afford therapy and have good friends supporting me as I tediously go on and on about the emotional impacts of losing a shitload of weight and *still* being considered fat by a large percentage of the population.
Also, “everyone should eat healthily” is a blind too. My diet is mostly crap, but because I am losing weight, people always assume that I am eating healthier. Whenever anything health-related seems to improve in me, someone will always attribute it to my weight loss and how healthily they assume I am eating. It’s not my diet they are scrutinizing, it is my waistline.
Women with giant breasts would be probably healthier with breast reductions. Would you dare to go around pushing at them to do it? People shunted into lousy jobs because of lack of education would be better off with degrees - if one of them bemoaned his/her lack of options on a thread dedicated to the subject, would you chime in with “yes, but if you got a better education, you’d be better off!”
Health for all is a wonderful notion - but when you start using it as a bludgeon on a group of people whose situations vary more widely than you could possibly know, you are not being kind. When you minimize the difficulty of the task you would thrust on them - the millions of changes, small and great, a fat person would have to make in order to lose enough weight to appear thin and not come in for the blanket fat person judgments, you’re not being kind. You’re not even being helpful. You’re just being rude.
MG
This comment was written by Mary Garden.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 11:53 am
This is a great point by Mary Garden that I wanted to repeat
It’s not my diet they are scrutinizing, it is my waistline.
because in one sentence hit on a big chunk of what I was trying (and doing a piss-poor job) to say above.
This comment was written by spit.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 11:53 am
Great post, intriguing discussion. Couldn’t find a trackback feature here so just a comment to let you know I referred to this post on my own blog, LuckyWhiteGirl.com
This comment was written by lucky.Report this comment to the moderators
January 11th, 2006 at 12:03 pm
since the only medical problem being discussed here that contributes to weight concerns thyroid problems, i’d also like to add some facts about another just for informational purposes (though it affects me via my wife, who has the condition).
the condition is polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS). it was named because it was originally thought of as a disease that causes the growth of ovarian cysts. but it has since been discovered that it is more of hormonal and metabolic disorder that usually (though, as in the case of m