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	<title>Comments on: Chomsky and Holocaust Denial</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/</link>
	<description>Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:51:06 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2</generator>
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		<title>By: H.E.A.R.T</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-206019</link>
		<dc:creator>H.E.A.R.T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 01:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-206019</guid>
		<description>Blogging has become the new venue for Holocaust Denial these days.

For the Anti-Semites the idea of a uni-directional diatribe without allowing for rebuttal is in most cases too tempting to pass up.

I am by no means categorizing all blogs or bloggers into the revisionist category but there are definitely signs that deniers are "hip" to the blog scene. They want nothing more than to discredit and destroy anything they can.

One must simply absorb any and all information with a watchful eye.

-Holocaust Education &#38; Archive Research Team
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blogging has become the new venue for Holocaust Denial these days.</p>
<p>For the Anti-Semites the idea of a uni-directional diatribe without allowing for rebuttal is in most cases too tempting to pass up.</p>
<p>I am by no means categorizing all blogs or bloggers into the revisionist category but there are definitely signs that deniers are &#8220;hip&#8221; to the blog scene. They want nothing more than to discredit and destroy anything they can.</p>
<p>One must simply absorb any and all information with a watchful eye.</p>
<p>-Holocaust Education &amp; Archive Research Team<br />
<a href="http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org</a></p>
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		<title>By: Avi</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-176489</link>
		<dc:creator>Avi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Aug 2006 21:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-176489</guid>
		<description>Holocaust deniers qualify automatically as antisemites:  if the holocaust is indeed a myth, it is a myth propagated by US and European governments including the German government, and by major Western world class media outlets, and is part of the history taught in Western schools, and so it automatically means that Jews do indeed control the most powerful European governments, the media, the schools etc. This is classic antisemitism. A rational person who doesn't have leanings towards believing this type of conspiracy theory would reject the possibility of sucha large-scale hoax, and would therefore reject holocaust-denial.

http://jewhatred.blogspot.com 
http://pages.nyu.edu/~air1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Holocaust deniers qualify automatically as antisemites:  if the holocaust is indeed a myth, it is a myth propagated by US and European governments including the German government, and by major Western world class media outlets, and is part of the history taught in Western schools, and so it automatically means that Jews do indeed control the most powerful European governments, the media, the schools etc. This is classic antisemitism. A rational person who doesn&#8217;t have leanings towards believing this type of conspiracy theory would reject the possibility of sucha large-scale hoax, and would therefore reject holocaust-denial.</p>
<p><a href="http://jewhatred.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://jewhatred.blogspot.com</a><br />
<a href="http://pages.nyu.edu/~air1" rel="nofollow">http://pages.nyu.edu/~air1</a></p>
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		<title>By: It&#8217;s All Connected&#8230; &#187; Israel and Anti-Semitism: Another Go Round - 1</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-97033</link>
		<dc:creator>It&#8217;s All Connected&#8230; &#187; Israel and Anti-Semitism: Another Go Round - 1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:26:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-97033</guid>
		<description>[...] I have been reading and commenting on this post at Alas, A Blog, which is a response to this post on David Schraub&#8217;s The Debate Link. Schraub&#8217;s post is, in turn, a response to what Amp had to say hereÂ about what David wrote here. (I hope I got the order of those posts right; if not, I apologize for any confusion I might have caused.) David has posted a response to Amp&#8217;s latest blog that makes some claims, implicitly and explicitly, that need to be unpacked, I think. First, and I will tackle others in later posts, in repsonse to Amp&#8217;s claim that David&#8217;s attempt to paint Chomsky as an ally of anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial is an attempt by pro-Israel Jews to make Jewish critics of Israel into non-Jews. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I have been reading and commenting on this post at Alas, A Blog, which is a response to this post on David Schraub&#8217;s The Debate Link. Schraub&#8217;s post is, in turn, a response to what Amp had to say hereÂ about what David wrote here. (I hope I got the order of those posts right; if not, I apologize for any confusion I might have caused.) David has posted a response to Amp&#8217;s latest blog that makes some claims, implicitly and explicitly, that need to be unpacked, I think. First, and I will tackle others in later posts, in repsonse to Amp&#8217;s claim that David&#8217;s attempt to paint Chomsky as an ally of anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial is an attempt by pro-Israel Jews to make Jewish critics of Israel into non-Jews. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; More on Chomsky and Anti-Semitism</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-96886</link>
		<dc:creator>Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; More on Chomsky and Anti-Semitism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-96886</guid>
		<description>[...] David at The Debate Link has responded to my post on Chomsky and Holocaust Denial. Although David is a nice guy and one of my favorite bloggers, I think his response misses the target, both factually and persuasively. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] David at The Debate Link has responded to my post on Chomsky and Holocaust Denial. Although David is a nice guy and one of my favorite bloggers, I think his response misses the target, both factually and persuasively. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sally</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-94604</link>
		<dc:creator>Sally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jan 2006 03:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-94604</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Where the Iranians might have a point, or valid point of inquiry at least, is when they argue that compensating and forming a homeland for Jews seemed to come at the expense of a group of people who had nothing to do with the holocaust, the Palestinians. Now I know that even saying this may garner accusations of anti-seminism, and maybe I deserve this, though I sincerely hope not.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I wouldn't say you're guilty of anti-semitism, but I think you may be guilty of naivite.  It might be worth asking whether there was a better way to safeguard the Jewish population after the Holocaust, but that's not what the Iranian government is doing. They're just trying to shore up their popularity by baiting Jews.  They don't have any valid points.  They're just trying to start a big, noisy fight which will focus the country on a common enemy and distract ordinary Iranians from the stuff that's making them miserable, such as Iran's sky-high unemployment rate and very high incidence of drug addiction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Where the Iranians might have a point, or valid point of inquiry at least, is when they argue that compensating and forming a homeland for Jews seemed to come at the expense of a group of people who had nothing to do with the holocaust, the Palestinians. Now I know that even saying this may garner accusations of anti-seminism, and maybe I deserve this, though I sincerely hope not.</p></blockquote>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t say you&#8217;re guilty of anti-semitism, but I think you may be guilty of naivite.  It might be worth asking whether there was a better way to safeguard the Jewish population after the Holocaust, but that&#8217;s not what the Iranian government is doing. They&#8217;re just trying to shore up their popularity by baiting Jews.  They don&#8217;t have any valid points.  They&#8217;re just trying to start a big, noisy fight which will focus the country on a common enemy and distract ordinary Iranians from the stuff that&#8217;s making them miserable, such as Iran&#8217;s sky-high unemployment rate and very high incidence of drug addiction.</p>
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		<title>By: arbitraryaardvark</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-94586</link>
		<dc:creator>arbitraryaardvark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-94586</guid>
		<description>I'd welcome clarification of what's meant by the holocaust. It can be used in a narrow sense of what the German Nazis did  to jews and other folks circa 1941-44, or can be used in a broader sense that might include, e.g., the Armenian massacres by the Turks, the starvation of the Ukraine by Stalin, Mao's purges, Nagasaki...  
It's difficult to assess whether it's unreasonable to deny something, until we know which something is at issue. My point isn't directed so much at the Iranian asshats, as at the broader spectrum of holocaust denial. 
Elie Weisal's "Night" tells the story of holocaust denial by jews. A crazy guy from the village comes back with horrible tales of people being rounded up and sent to camps, and no one wants to believe him...
I know that I live my life from day to day nearly forgetting that's there's a war on. We each have ways of blocking off awareness of cruelty and suffering, because without them we go crazy. A short trip in my case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d welcome clarification of what&#8217;s meant by the holocaust. It can be used in a narrow sense of what the German Nazis did  to jews and other folks circa 1941-44, or can be used in a broader sense that might include, e.g., the Armenian massacres by the Turks, the starvation of the Ukraine by Stalin, Mao&#8217;s purges, Nagasaki&#8230;<br />
It&#8217;s difficult to assess whether it&#8217;s unreasonable to deny something, until we know which something is at issue. My point isn&#8217;t directed so much at the Iranian asshats, as at the broader spectrum of holocaust denial.<br />
Elie Weisal&#8217;s &#8220;Night&#8221; tells the story of holocaust denial by jews. A crazy guy from the village comes back with horrible tales of people being rounded up and sent to camps, and no one wants to believe him&#8230;<br />
I know that I live my life from day to day nearly forgetting that&#8217;s there&#8217;s a war on. We each have ways of blocking off awareness of cruelty and suffering, because without them we go crazy. A short trip in my case.</p>
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		<title>By: Matan</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-94566</link>
		<dc:creator>Matan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-94566</guid>
		<description>Amp Fan says:

&lt;blockquote&gt; forming a homeland for Jews seemed to come at the expense of a group of people who had nothing to do with the holocaust, the Palestinians. Now I know that even saying this may garner accusations of anti-seminism, and maybe I deserve this, though I sincerely hope not. But. Could Israel have been formed in a way that generated less ill will in the Middle East?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree with you that there were things that were not done right and that it's a valid thing to argue. I also agree that one people's self-determination should not come at the expense of another's. The problem is that there are many, many points of disagreement about Palestinian and Israeli history, pre- and post-'48. For example, w/r/t Palestinian refugees from within the pre-'67 borders of Israel: 1) Did the Israeli forces make them leave? 2) Did they leave because they were afraid and/or thought it was a bad idea to be in the country? 3) Did leaders of surrounding Arab countries encourage them to vacate the area? The answer, probably, is all three to a greater or lesser extent.

The history involved has an important role to play and is instrumental in reconciliation. The problem is that resolving the narratives is only &lt;i&gt;part&lt;/i&gt; of the solution. Allowing people in the region to come to know the situation from each others' perspectives is crucial--as opposed to the heaps of blame that will be handed out at this conference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amp Fan says:</p>
<blockquote><p> forming a homeland for Jews seemed to come at the expense of a group of people who had nothing to do with the holocaust, the Palestinians. Now I know that even saying this may garner accusations of anti-seminism, and maybe I deserve this, though I sincerely hope not. But. Could Israel have been formed in a way that generated less ill will in the Middle East?</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree with you that there were things that were not done right and that it&#8217;s a valid thing to argue. I also agree that one people&#8217;s self-determination should not come at the expense of another&#8217;s. The problem is that there are many, many points of disagreement about Palestinian and Israeli history, pre- and post-&#8217;48. For example, w/r/t Palestinian refugees from within the pre-&#8217;67 borders of Israel: 1) Did the Israeli forces make them leave? 2) Did they leave because they were afraid and/or thought it was a bad idea to be in the country? 3) Did leaders of surrounding Arab countries encourage them to vacate the area? The answer, probably, is all three to a greater or lesser extent.</p>
<p>The history involved has an important role to play and is instrumental in reconciliation. The problem is that resolving the narratives is only <i>part</i> of the solution. Allowing people in the region to come to know the situation from each others&#8217; perspectives is crucial&#8211;as opposed to the heaps of blame that will be handed out at this conference.</p>
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		<title>By: Amp Fan</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-94564</link>
		<dc:creator>Amp Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:42:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-94564</guid>
		<description>I am not at all, NOT AT ALL, defending the Iranian govt or anyone else who calls the holocaust a myth.  Where the Iranians might have a point, or valid point of inquiry at least, is when they argue that compensating and forming a homeland for Jews seemed to come at the expense of a group of people who had nothing to do with the holocaust, the Palestinians.  Now I know that even saying this may  garner accusations of anti-seminism, and maybe I deserve this, though I sincerely hope not. But. Could Israel have been formed in a way that generated less ill will in the Middle East? Is there a way to defuse tensions even now by acknowledging that mistakes were made?  These strike me as legitimate questions, even if they are asked by Iran.   Debating  hard questions might be a peaceful way to defuse tensions; is giving this at least a try really so terrible? Yes,  stupid, indefensible things may be said, but also emphatically rebutted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not at all, NOT AT ALL, defending the Iranian govt or anyone else who calls the holocaust a myth.  Where the Iranians might have a point, or valid point of inquiry at least, is when they argue that compensating and forming a homeland for Jews seemed to come at the expense of a group of people who had nothing to do with the holocaust, the Palestinians.  Now I know that even saying this may  garner accusations of anti-seminism, and maybe I deserve this, though I sincerely hope not. But. Could Israel have been formed in a way that generated less ill will in the Middle East? Is there a way to defuse tensions even now by acknowledging that mistakes were made?  These strike me as legitimate questions, even if they are asked by Iran.   Debating  hard questions might be a peaceful way to defuse tensions; is giving this at least a try really so terrible? Yes,  stupid, indefensible things may be said, but also emphatically rebutted.</p>
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		<title>By: Matan</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-94556</link>
		<dc:creator>Matan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-94556</guid>
		<description>Amp citing Chomsky:

&lt;blockquote&gt;...The Holocaust was the most extreme atrocity in human history, and we lose our humanity if we are even willing to enter the arena of debate with those who seek to deny or underplay Nazi crimes. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes. This rhetoric of "we need to study this to find out if it really happened" garbage that is being proposed as the point of the conference is just the old racist shit. Trying to spin it into a discourse of serious intellectual study is entirely misdirection:  "scientific" or "rational" racism has been around for a long time, from &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology" rel="nofollow"&gt;phrenology&lt;/a&gt; to the attempts by the Nazis to "prove" that Jews, Romani, people of African descent, etc. were subhuman.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amp citing Chomsky:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;The Holocaust was the most extreme atrocity in human history, and we lose our humanity if we are even willing to enter the arena of debate with those who seek to deny or underplay Nazi crimes. </p></blockquote>
<p>Yes. This rhetoric of &#8220;we need to study this to find out if it really happened&#8221; garbage that is being proposed as the point of the conference is just the old racist shit. Trying to spin it into a discourse of serious intellectual study is entirely misdirection:  &#8220;scientific&#8221; or &#8220;rational&#8221; racism has been around for a long time, from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology" rel="nofollow">phrenology</a> to the attempts by the Nazis to &#8220;prove&#8221; that Jews, Romani, people of African descent, etc. were subhuman.</p>
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		<title>By: The Debate Link</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-94506</link>
		<dc:creator>The Debate Link</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2006 22:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-94506</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Chomskites and The Holocaust&lt;/strong&gt;

My dear pal Ampersand writes a post defending Noam Chomsky and the architects of the Israel Academic boycott from my half-joking claims that they'd hop a plane to Tehran and provide Western legitimacy to the "Holocaust Conference" they plan on havin...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Chomskites and The Holocaust</strong></p>
<p>My dear pal Ampersand writes a post defending Noam Chomsky and the architects of the Israel Academic boycott from my half-joking claims that they&#8217;d hop a plane to Tehran and provide Western legitimacy to the &#8220;Holocaust Conference&#8221; they plan on havin&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kristjan Wager</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-94485</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristjan Wager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2006 20:34:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-94485</guid>
		<description>I hope that is tongue-in-cheek.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope that is tongue-in-cheek.</p>
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		<title>By: Vache Folle</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-94481</link>
		<dc:creator>Vache Folle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2006 20:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-94481</guid>
		<description>Holocaust denial?  There never were any Holocaust deniers.  It was made up by the producers of the miniseries "The Holocaust" to drum up viewers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Holocaust denial?  There never were any Holocaust deniers.  It was made up by the producers of the miniseries &#8220;The Holocaust&#8221; to drum up viewers.</p>
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		<title>By: slickdpdx</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-94480</link>
		<dc:creator>slickdpdx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2006 20:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-94480</guid>
		<description>Chomsky did go farther than making "well-worn free speech arguments" into support for the holocaust denier.  To that extent, David's comment is fair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chomsky did go farther than making &#8220;well-worn free speech arguments&#8221; into support for the holocaust denier.  To that extent, David&#8217;s comment is fair.</p>
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		<title>By: feminist blogs</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/16/chomsky-and-holocaust-denial/#comment-264919</link>
		<dc:creator>feminist blogs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2065#comment-264919</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-pre%--&gt; David at The Debate Link has responded tomy post on Chomsky and Holocaust Denial. Although David is a nice guy and one of my favorite bloggers, I think his response misses the target, both factually and persuasively. Since my response is a bit long, I will split it into two parts. But before I get started, I think it's important&lt;!--%kramer-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-pre%--> David at The Debate Link has responded tomy post on Chomsky and Holocaust Denial. Although David is a nice guy and one of my favorite bloggers, I think his response misses the target, both factually and persuasively. Since my response is a bit long, I will split it into two parts. But before I get started, I think it&#8217;s important<!--%kramer-post%--></p>
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