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	<title>Comments on: (Very) Basic Economics and Abortion</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/</link>
	<description>Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about.</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 03:58:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Pro-lifers tried to force 9-year-old rape victim to give birth to twins</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-355591</link>
		<dc:creator>Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Pro-lifers tried to force 9-year-old rape victim to give birth to twins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:08:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-355591</guid>
		<description>[...] calculation, that if the US&#8217;s abortion rates were as low as Belgium&#8217;s, that would mean 700,000 fewer abortions a year.) This is truly an issue where both sides could get what they want. But this grand compromise [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] calculation, that if the US&#8217;s abortion rates were as low as Belgium&#8217;s, that would mean 700,000 fewer abortions a year.) This is truly an issue where both sides could get what they want. But this grand compromise [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Know Thine Enemy: Fetal Personhood as Metaphorical Thinking (Repost)</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-355415</link>
		<dc:creator>Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Know Thine Enemy: Fetal Personhood as Metaphorical Thinking (Repost)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 21:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-355415</guid>
		<description>[...] have wanted to write about this for a while, now, ever since I read through the thread called (Very) Basic Economics and Abortion over at Alas. Since then, though, a number of things have happened: the Supreme Court has agreed to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] have wanted to write about this for a while, now, ever since I read through the thread called (Very) Basic Economics and Abortion over at Alas. Since then, though, a number of things have happened: the Supreme Court has agreed to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Know Thine Enemy: Fetal Personhood as Metaphorical Thinking (Repost) &#171; It&#8217;s All Connected&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-355413</link>
		<dc:creator>Know Thine Enemy: Fetal Personhood as Metaphorical Thinking (Repost) &#171; It&#8217;s All Connected&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 21:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-355413</guid>
		<description>[...] have wanted to write about this for a while, now, ever since I read through the thread called (Very) Basic Economics and Abortion over at Alas. Since then, though, a number of things have happened: the Supreme Court has agreed to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] have wanted to write about this for a while, now, ever since I read through the thread called (Very) Basic Economics and Abortion over at Alas. Since then, though, a number of things have happened: the Supreme Court has agreed to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: My portion on abortion</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-293812</link>
		<dc:creator>My portion on abortion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 12:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-293812</guid>
		<description>[...] Cited from: Alas, a blog [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Cited from: Alas, a blog [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bitch &#124; Lab</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-198166</link>
		<dc:creator>Bitch &#124; Lab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Oct 2006 20:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-198166</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Doable men and boy panties&lt;/strong&gt;

A while ago, I mentioned to Thagmano and Rachel that I would probably post my &#8220;I&#8217;m not sorry&#8221; story. 
I had an abortion last January. I wasn&#8217;t exactly pleased about that. In my dotage, I&#8217;m just fertile goddamned myrtle. I ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Doable men and boy panties</strong></p>
<p>A while ago, I mentioned to Thagmano and Rachel that I would probably post my &#8220;I&#8217;m not sorry&#8221; story.<br />
I had an abortion last January. I wasn&#8217;t exactly pleased about that. In my dotage, I&#8217;m just fertile goddamned myrtle. I &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Creative Destruction &#187; My Blacklog</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-143053</link>
		<dc:creator>Creative Destruction &#187; My Blacklog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jun 2006 23:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-143053</guid>
		<description>[...] Imagine that future technology made it possible to safely remove a foetus from a pregnant woman, and incubate it in an artifial womb. Women would then be able to walk away from a living foetus like men can now. Would they then be willing to give up abortion? Not without rights equivalent to C4M!. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Imagine that future technology made it possible to safely remove a foetus from a pregnant woman, and incubate it in an artifial womb. Women would then be able to walk away from a living foetus like men can now. Would they then be willing to give up abortion? Not without rights equivalent to C4M!. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tree</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-141932</link>
		<dc:creator>Tree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-141932</guid>
		<description>I think a big part of the probIem that you are seeing with most pro Iifers is that they aIso think that birth controI is wrong. perhaps not as wrong as an abortion, but they woud never suggest it as a soIution.   I have to agree with you though, it is a suppIy and demand issue, and we need to reduce the demand.  

(sorry about the capitaI Is in pIace of  that Ietter that comes between k and m.  broken keyboard</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a big part of the probIem that you are seeing with most pro Iifers is that they aIso think that birth controI is wrong. perhaps not as wrong as an abortion, but they woud never suggest it as a soIution.   I have to agree with you though, it is a suppIy and demand issue, and we need to reduce the demand.  </p>
<p>(sorry about the capitaI Is in pIace of  that Ietter that comes between k and m.  broken keyboard</p>
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		<title>By: Curious</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-141663</link>
		<dc:creator>Curious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-141663</guid>
		<description>cicely and gengwall,

Why do you have to discuss this? I believe abortions should be legal, even encouraged to people who are actually considering it. Why? 

First, if my parents had any doubts about having me, I would have adviced them NOT to have me at all. No body needs an "obligatory birth". No thanks! 

Second, if you have doubts about having children and you still engaged in behaviour that could lead into having some, you are irresponsible. It places a doubt on your abilities to be a parent. Maybe you should be sterlized, permanently after the abortion.

How is that for a pro-choice position?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cicely and gengwall,</p>
<p>Why do you have to discuss this? I believe abortions should be legal, even encouraged to people who are actually considering it. Why? </p>
<p>First, if my parents had any doubts about having me, I would have adviced them NOT to have me at all. No body needs an &#8220;obligatory birth&#8221;. No thanks! </p>
<p>Second, if you have doubts about having children and you still engaged in behaviour that could lead into having some, you are irresponsible. It places a doubt on your abilities to be a parent. Maybe you should be sterlized, permanently after the abortion.</p>
<p>How is that for a pro-choice position?</p>
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		<title>By: fybix.net ...it could be worse...</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-100170</link>
		<dc:creator>fybix.net ...it could be worse...</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-100170</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;My portion on abortion&lt;/strong&gt;

April over at &#8220;for better or for worse&#8221; podcasted on South Dakota&#8217;s ban on abortions. I&#8217;m pro-life, but I don&#8217;t try to change people&#8217;s view on it. But I do however love to say what is on my mind.
Abortions will alway...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>My portion on abortion</strong></p>
<p>April over at &#8220;for better or for worse&#8221; podcasted on South Dakota&#8217;s ban on abortions. I&#8217;m pro-life, but I don&#8217;t try to change people&#8217;s view on it. But I do however love to say what is on my mind.<br />
Abortions will alway&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: It&#8217;s All Connected&#8230; &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Know Thine Enemy: Fetal Personhood as Metaphorical Thinking</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-99175</link>
		<dc:creator>It&#8217;s All Connected&#8230; &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Know Thine Enemy: Fetal Personhood as Metaphorical Thinking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Mar 2006 18:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-99175</guid>
		<description>[...] I have wanted to write about this for aÂ while, now, everÂ since I read through the thread called (Very) Basic Economics and Abortion over at Alas, A Blog. Since then, though, a number of things have happened: the Supreme Court has agreed to hear a case concerning so-called &#8220;partial-birth abortions,&#8221; South Dakota has passed the most restrictive law in the country against rape, Utah has a proposed law that would eliminate incest exceptions in its parental notification law, and I have been in another conversation,Â WhatÂ If Your Mother Was Pro-Choice,Â on Alas, the initial post of which concerned a common strategy used by people who are anti-choice to try to silenceÂ those of us who are pro-choice: what would have happened if your mother had chosen to have an abortion instead of giving birth to you? At one point the thread became a conversation about whether the immaculate conception was an instance of divine rape or not (start reading here). This was relevant because it went to the question of what it means for women to have real choice in terms of pregnancy and childbirth...which also means in terms of when and whether and under what conditions to have sex...and, though I don&#8217;t remember that this point was brought out explicitly, to the question of what we model our understanding of women&#8217;s reproductive choice on. (I have italicized this because it will become important later on, towards the end of what I want to say.) What I want to do here is to try to tie all these various things together under the title I have given this post because I think it goes to the heart of understanding a rarely articulated aspect of what is at stake in the anti-choice position, whether it is articulated in explicitly religious terms or not, and because, under the general strategy of &#8220;know thine enemy,&#8221; I think this is an important understanding to reach. It&#8217;s going to take a while, and I&#8217;m going to have to make a number of leaps,Â to get where I want to go in this, so I hope you will bear with me. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I have wanted to write about this for aÂ while, now, everÂ since I read through the thread called (Very) Basic Economics and Abortion over at Alas, A Blog. Since then, though, a number of things have happened: the Supreme Court has agreed to hear a case concerning so-called &#8220;partial-birth abortions,&#8221; South Dakota has passed the most restrictive law in the country against rape, Utah has a proposed law that would eliminate incest exceptions in its parental notification law, and I have been in another conversation,Â WhatÂ If Your Mother Was Pro-Choice,Â on Alas, the initial post of which concerned a common strategy used by people who are anti-choice to try to silenceÂ those of us who are pro-choice: what would have happened if your mother had chosen to have an abortion instead of giving birth to you? At one point the thread became a conversation about whether the immaculate conception was an instance of divine rape or not (start reading here). This was relevant because it went to the question of what it means for women to have real choice in terms of pregnancy and childbirth&#8230;which also means in terms of when and whether and under what conditions to have sex&#8230;and, though I don&#8217;t remember that this point was brought out explicitly, to the question of what we model our understanding of women&#8217;s reproductive choice on. (I have italicized this because it will become important later on, towards the end of what I want to say.) What I want to do here is to try to tie all these various things together under the title I have given this post because I think it goes to the heart of understanding a rarely articulated aspect of what is at stake in the anti-choice position, whether it is articulated in explicitly religious terms or not, and because, under the general strategy of &#8220;know thine enemy,&#8221; I think this is an important understanding to reach. It&#8217;s going to take a while, and I&#8217;m going to have to make a number of leaps,Â to get where I want to go in this, so I hope you will bear with me. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: cicely</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-98663</link>
		<dc:creator>cicely</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2006 01:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-98663</guid>
		<description>The problem isn't only what becomes of women's rights around their own bodily integrity in the US, as the civilised  secular world watches on in horror and offers it's deepest sympathy along with expressions of outrage, it's that the religiously informed US  government exports it's view and abuses its power over women in other countries too. As always, the poorest and weakest suffer the most. The article this is an excerpt from appeared in The Guardian Feb 10 - 16.

'The British government has this week defied the United States by giving money for safe abortion services in developing countries to organisations that have been cut off ffrom American funding.

Nearly 70,000 women and girls died last year because they went to back-street abortionists. Hundreds of thousands of others suffered serious injuries. Critics of America's aid policy say some might have lived if the US had not withdrawn funding from clinics that provide safe services - or that simply tell women where to find them.

The 'global gag' rule, as it has become known, was imposed by President George Bush in 2001. It requires any organisation applying for US funds to sign an undertaking not to counsel women on abortion - other than advising against it - or to provide abortion services.

On Tuesday the UK became the founder donor of a fund set up specifically to attempt to replace the lost dollars and increase safe abortion serices.'</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem isn&#8217;t only what becomes of women&#8217;s rights around their own bodily integrity in the US, as the civilised  secular world watches on in horror and offers it&#8217;s deepest sympathy along with expressions of outrage, it&#8217;s that the religiously informed US  government exports it&#8217;s view and abuses its power over women in other countries too. As always, the poorest and weakest suffer the most. The article this is an excerpt from appeared in The Guardian Feb 10 - 16.</p>
<p>&#8216;The British government has this week defied the United States by giving money for safe abortion services in developing countries to organisations that have been cut off ffrom American funding.</p>
<p>Nearly 70,000 women and girls died last year because they went to back-street abortionists. Hundreds of thousands of others suffered serious injuries. Critics of America&#8217;s aid policy say some might have lived if the US had not withdrawn funding from clinics that provide safe services - or that simply tell women where to find them.</p>
<p>The &#8216;global gag&#8217; rule, as it has become known, was imposed by President George Bush in 2001. It requires any organisation applying for US funds to sign an undertaking not to counsel women on abortion - other than advising against it - or to provide abortion services.</p>
<p>On Tuesday the UK became the founder donor of a fund set up specifically to attempt to replace the lost dollars and increase safe abortion serices.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: cicely</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-98621</link>
		<dc:creator>cicely</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Feb 2006 16:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-98621</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If this law can stand up to scrutiny then other states will follow.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It's not about whether this law can stand up to scrutiny, gengwall. It's about who's doing the scrutinising.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If this law can stand up to scrutiny then other states will follow.</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s not about whether this law can stand up to scrutiny, gengwall. It&#8217;s about who&#8217;s doing the scrutinising.</p>
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		<title>By: gengwall</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-98543</link>
		<dc:creator>gengwall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-98543</guid>
		<description>Hate to say I told you so, but...

From the AP today:

&lt;a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060223/ap_on_re_us/abortion_south_dakota_5;_ylt=ApnxZZOEzxEDk2.FnI8XYnOB_YEA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl" rel="nofollow"&gt; S.D. Closer to Strict Abortion Limits &lt;/a&gt;

Most importantly in the bill, the unborn are explicitely declared human beings that have constitutional protection within the SD constitution. Some significant portions:

&lt;blockquote&gt;HB 1215 Section  1.  The Legislature accepts and concurs with the conclusion of the South Dakota Task Force to Study Abortion, based upon written materials, scientific studies, and testimony of witnesses presented to the task force, that life begins at the time of conception, a conclusion confirmed by scientific advances since the 1973 decision of Roe v. Wade, including the fact that each human being is totally unique immediately at fertilization. ..Moreover, the Legislature finds that the guarantee of due process of law under the Constitution of South Dakota applies equally to born and unborn human beings, and that under the Constitution of South Dakota, a pregnant mother and her unborn child, each possess a natural and inalienable right to life.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Section 5 (1) "Pregnant," the human female reproductive condition, of having a living unborn human being within her body throughout the entire embryonic and fetal ages of the unborn child from fertilization to full gestation and child birth
 (2)    "Unborn human being," an individual living member of the species, homo sapiens, throughout the entire embryonic and fetal ages of the unborn child from fertilization to full gestation and childbirth;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Of course, SD is far from the mecca of abortion. But that certainly isn't the point. If this law can stand up to scrutiny then other states will follow. More importantly, is this law stands up then it's principals, which establish that the unborn are human beings with equal protection rights, stand as well. Roe avoided this issue. Now it very likely could be confronted head on by it. If 14th ammendment rights are extended to the unborn...well, you know where I'm going, we've been through this before.

I must admit this is happeneing even sooner than I expected. The time for compromise and action to limit abortions voluntarily is now, before abortions are outlawed nation wide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hate to say I told you so, but&#8230;</p>
<p>From the AP today:</p>
<p><a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060223/ap_on_re_us/abortion_south_dakota_5;_ylt=ApnxZZOEzxEDk2.FnI8XYnOB_YEA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl" rel="nofollow"> S.D. Closer to Strict Abortion Limits </a></p>
<p>Most importantly in the bill, the unborn are explicitely declared human beings that have constitutional protection within the SD constitution. Some significant portions:</p>
<blockquote><p>HB 1215 Section  1.  The Legislature accepts and concurs with the conclusion of the South Dakota Task Force to Study Abortion, based upon written materials, scientific studies, and testimony of witnesses presented to the task force, that life begins at the time of conception, a conclusion confirmed by scientific advances since the 1973 decision of Roe v. Wade, including the fact that each human being is totally unique immediately at fertilization. ..Moreover, the Legislature finds that the guarantee of due process of law under the Constitution of South Dakota applies equally to born and unborn human beings, and that under the Constitution of South Dakota, a pregnant mother and her unborn child, each possess a natural and inalienable right to life.
</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>Section 5 (1) &#8220;Pregnant,&#8221; the human female reproductive condition, of having a living unborn human being within her body throughout the entire embryonic and fetal ages of the unborn child from fertilization to full gestation and child birth<br />
 (2)    &#8220;Unborn human being,&#8221; an individual living member of the species, homo sapiens, throughout the entire embryonic and fetal ages of the unborn child from fertilization to full gestation and childbirth;</p></blockquote>
<p>Of course, SD is far from the mecca of abortion. But that certainly isn&#8217;t the point. If this law can stand up to scrutiny then other states will follow. More importantly, is this law stands up then it&#8217;s principals, which establish that the unborn are human beings with equal protection rights, stand as well. Roe avoided this issue. Now it very likely could be confronted head on by it. If 14th ammendment rights are extended to the unborn&#8230;well, you know where I&#8217;m going, we&#8217;ve been through this before.</p>
<p>I must admit this is happeneing even sooner than I expected. The time for compromise and action to limit abortions voluntarily is now, before abortions are outlawed nation wide.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeepers</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-97834</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeepers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2006 01:32:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-97834</guid>
		<description>Perhaps by now you've all heard of the analogy of comparing mandatory uterus donation to mandatory organ donation?  

Here's my take on it:

All adults over 21 must undergo mandatory testing, and be required by law to give one kidney to whoever needs it, if there's a match.  If it is reasonable to demand a woman sacrifice her body for the life of a foetus, then it is equally reasonable to demand citizens sacrifice a kidney to anyone who will die without it. 

Of course, we shall test all members of congress first, so they can set an example of patriotism to the nation.

This analogy is inspired, and I for one hope you all write your congressional representatives requesting a law like this.

http://www.firstgov.gov/Contact.shtml</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps by now you&#8217;ve all heard of the analogy of comparing mandatory uterus donation to mandatory organ donation?  </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s my take on it:</p>
<p>All adults over 21 must undergo mandatory testing, and be required by law to give one kidney to whoever needs it, if there&#8217;s a match.  If it is reasonable to demand a woman sacrifice her body for the life of a foetus, then it is equally reasonable to demand citizens sacrifice a kidney to anyone who will die without it. </p>
<p>Of course, we shall test all members of congress first, so they can set an example of patriotism to the nation.</p>
<p>This analogy is inspired, and I for one hope you all write your congressional representatives requesting a law like this.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.firstgov.gov/Contact.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.firstgov.gov/Contact.shtml</a></p>
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		<title>By: soopermouse</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-97691</link>
		<dc:creator>soopermouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-97691</guid>
		<description>I will step in with something that most of the posters here lack- a direct experience of living in a country who banned abortion.
I am Romanian. From 1969 to 1989, abortion was illegal in Romania.
Women could get abortion for health reasons of them or the foetus.
1. Abortion rates did not go down. A lotof women had backstreet abortions, which ended in infections and bleedings. They would be taken to the hospital, where they would be refused treatment if the did not denounced the abortionist.
A lot of women ( maybe 5000/year for a 22million peoplepopulation) died like that. Look up the term "septic ward".
2. A lot of abbandoned children in hospitals/on streets, etc.
Does anyone remember the grimmovies about teh Romanian orphans that flooded the TV in 90-92?? The numbers of some 50,000 children living on the streets/ in the sewers or in abject conditions in orphanages( Romania is a poor country)??
That is the result of illegal abortion. NO, it did not stop teens having sex.  The numbersare missing, but I am willing to put money on teh rate of abortions not going down. Women's mortality rates werepretty high though.

This is what illegal abortion will inflict on a country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will step in with something that most of the posters here lack- a direct experience of living in a country who banned abortion.<br />
I am Romanian. From 1969 to 1989, abortion was illegal in Romania.<br />
Women could get abortion for health reasons of them or the foetus.<br />
1. Abortion rates did not go down. A lotof women had backstreet abortions, which ended in infections and bleedings. They would be taken to the hospital, where they would be refused treatment if the did not denounced the abortionist.<br />
A lot of women ( maybe 5000/year for a 22million peoplepopulation) died like that. Look up the term &#8220;septic ward&#8221;.<br />
2. A lot of abbandoned children in hospitals/on streets, etc.<br />
Does anyone remember the grimmovies about teh Romanian orphans that flooded the TV in 90-92?? The numbers of some 50,000 children living on the streets/ in the sewers or in abject conditions in orphanages( Romania is a poor country)??<br />
That is the result of illegal abortion. NO, it did not stop teens having sex.  The numbersare missing, but I am willing to put money on teh rate of abortions not going down. Women&#8217;s mortality rates werepretty high though.</p>
<p>This is what illegal abortion will inflict on a country.</p>
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		<title>By: cicely</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-97685</link>
		<dc:creator>cicely</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-97685</guid>
		<description>Furthur reading in The Australian  newspaper revealed this...

'Democrats leader Lyn Allison, who kickstarted the debate with a private members bill last year and revealed on the eve of the debate she had undergone a termination as a teenager in rural Victoria, said she simply felt "relief".

"In my first speech in this place I said I hoped one day to see a time when women would cross the floor in solidarity on women's issues and that's what happened today..."

Brilliant. Spread the word!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Furthur reading in The Australian  newspaper revealed this&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8216;Democrats leader Lyn Allison, who kickstarted the debate with a private members bill last year and revealed on the eve of the debate she had undergone a termination as a teenager in rural Victoria, said she simply felt &#8220;relief&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;In my first speech in this place I said I hoped one day to see a time when women would cross the floor in solidarity on women&#8217;s issues and that&#8217;s what happened today&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Brilliant. Spread the word!</p>
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		<title>By: cicely</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-97679</link>
		<dc:creator>cicely</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2006 06:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-97679</guid>
		<description>I am re-visiting this thread with an update. Yesterday, in a conscience vote (meaning government members are permitted to vote according to their conscience and not along party lines), the Australian Senate voted on a private member's bill to take the decision about whether the RU486 'morning after' abortion pill should be made available to women in Australia out of the hands of the conservative Health Minister and put into the hands of the Therapeutic Goods Authority. This would allow the decision to rest on issues of safety rather than religiously informed morality. (Incidentally, Australia's Health Minister once seriously considered entering a Catholic Seminary and becoming a priest...)

The bill passed (hooray!) by 45 votes to 28. Female Senators from *all* parties co-sponsored the bill and of the 26 women who voted, 23 supported it. Being such a sensitive issue, there was no whooping and hollering etc, but a quiet 'Well done, girls, well done', was heard after the result was announced. 

I am not generally a supporter of the party or politics of this country's immigration minister, Amanda Vanstone, but I did enjoy this illustrative comment she made:

"One of the men said...he doesn't want abortion to be any easier and a pill would necessarily be easier. Well, hello. Clearly he has never had the mindset of it ever happening to him. It is not going to happen to him. It is not going to happen to him because he is a boy." 

I offer this in support of my arguement that if only women were permitted to vote on the abortion issue, there would virtually be no issue. Therefore, this is about raw patriarchal power - men's power over women. Again, this *may* not be the case in the US where support for Christian fundamentalist beliefs is so widespread (and alternative worldviews appear to be being denied your youth wherever possible) that your country is in danger of becoming a theocracy if it isn't already. That is where you get your 'bargaining' strength from, gengwall. You make yourself sound like a reasonable man, and I believe you believe yourself to be one, but from my perspective, I'm sorry, but you are not. You are participating in an abuse of power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am re-visiting this thread with an update. Yesterday, in a conscience vote (meaning government members are permitted to vote according to their conscience and not along party lines), the Australian Senate voted on a private member&#8217;s bill to take the decision about whether the RU486 &#8216;morning after&#8217; abortion pill should be made available to women in Australia out of the hands of the conservative Health Minister and put into the hands of the Therapeutic Goods Authority. This would allow the decision to rest on issues of safety rather than religiously informed morality. (Incidentally, Australia&#8217;s Health Minister once seriously considered entering a Catholic Seminary and becoming a priest&#8230;)</p>
<p>The bill passed (hooray!) by 45 votes to 28. Female Senators from *all* parties co-sponsored the bill and of the 26 women who voted, 23 supported it. Being such a sensitive issue, there was no whooping and hollering etc, but a quiet &#8216;Well done, girls, well done&#8217;, was heard after the result was announced. </p>
<p>I am not generally a supporter of the party or politics of this country&#8217;s immigration minister, Amanda Vanstone, but I did enjoy this illustrative comment she made:</p>
<p>&#8220;One of the men said&#8230;he doesn&#8217;t want abortion to be any easier and a pill would necessarily be easier. Well, hello. Clearly he has never had the mindset of it ever happening to him. It is not going to happen to him. It is not going to happen to him because he is a boy.&#8221; </p>
<p>I offer this in support of my arguement that if only women were permitted to vote on the abortion issue, there would virtually be no issue. Therefore, this is about raw patriarchal power - men&#8217;s power over women. Again, this *may* not be the case in the US where support for Christian fundamentalist beliefs is so widespread (and alternative worldviews appear to be being denied your youth wherever possible) that your country is in danger of becoming a theocracy if it isn&#8217;t already. That is where you get your &#8216;bargaining&#8217; strength from, gengwall. You make yourself sound like a reasonable man, and I believe you believe yourself to be one, but from my perspective, I&#8217;m sorry, but you are not. You are participating in an abuse of power.</p>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-97529</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2006 06:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-97529</guid>
		<description>Glad this blog died - it is an awful subject :).   You can try to justify it all you want but 50% believe this and 50% believe that - which means to me a pretty good indicator that there is something not very settled in this situation and no decision is the absolute correct one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad this blog died - it is an awful subject :).   You can try to justify it all you want but 50% believe this and 50% believe that - which means to me a pretty good indicator that there is something not very settled in this situation and no decision is the absolute correct one.</p>
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		<title>By: Fielder's Choice</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-96963</link>
		<dc:creator>Fielder's Choice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 01:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-96963</guid>
		<description>Long ago in Eden there was man and there was woman,
And nothing but a fig betwixt their shame,
And now that we have bullets and a glove to hide our britches in,
We think that Seth and Abel are to blame,
Glorying in confusion, cursed by man the woman,
Cursed by woman the man, fighting like Cain is not but human,
Counting all our pennies, calling children dimes,
Spending all our money on a Saturday of crime,
Wasting our pleasure on what should have been a treasure.
When I am gone do not see me as just the price for leisure: 
Eve was S-T-R-O-N-G.

To the memory of Rev. Coretta Scott King, Religious Peacemaker</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Long ago in Eden there was man and there was woman,<br />
And nothing but a fig betwixt their shame,<br />
And now that we have bullets and a glove to hide our britches in,<br />
We think that Seth and Abel are to blame,<br />
Glorying in confusion, cursed by man the woman,<br />
Cursed by woman the man, fighting like Cain is not but human,<br />
Counting all our pennies, calling children dimes,<br />
Spending all our money on a Saturday of crime,<br />
Wasting our pleasure on what should have been a treasure.<br />
When I am gone do not see me as just the price for leisure:<br />
Eve was S-T-R-O-N-G.</p>
<p>To the memory of Rev. Coretta Scott King, Religious Peacemaker</p>
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		<title>By: Broce</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/22/very-basic-economics-and-abortion/#comment-96924</link>
		<dc:creator>Broce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/?p=2078#comment-96924</guid>
		<description>&#62;Plus, we just hate the government spending our money on people we believe are behaving badly.

The problem, of course, is that we all have different views on what constitutes behaving badly. Personally, I hate that the government subsidizes corporations I believe are behaving badly...but somehow all the invective of the religious right seems not to come down on all the things that Christ is supposed to have talked about, but only about the sex lives of people. I rarely hear the prolife contingent or the religious right in general berating corporations for pollution that causes birth defects, or othe ways in which both people and corporations are "bad citzens"....instead, it seems only pruriently interested in the sex lives of single women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;Plus, we just hate the government spending our money on people we believe are behaving badly.</p>
<p>The problem, of course, is that we all have different views on what constitutes behaving badly. Personally, I hate that the government subsidizes corporations I believe are behaving badly&#8230;but somehow all the invective of the religious right seems not to come down on all the things that Christ is supposed to have talked about, but only about the sex lives of people. I rarely hear the prolife contingent or the religious right in general berating corporations for pollution that causes birth defects, or othe ways in which both people and corporations are &#8220;bad citzens&#8221;&#8230;.instead, it seems only pruriently interested in the sex lives of single women.</p>
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