It is difficult for women to see the difference between consensual and non-consensual sex because so many women have sex while not enjoying it.

Many women are not used to orgasms during intercourse, their first few sexual experiences were painful and every now and then they have sex solely to please the man in their life.

For these women the difference between sexual experiences does not lie on wanting versus not wanting, but on agreeing versus not agreeing.

Thus the fuzzy boundaries.

Richard, that’s really confusing. Your writing is clear, but the situation is a mindfuck.

On the other hand, had I been raised as a Korean man, I might be better able to navigate that sort of thing.

Thanks, Hershele. Mindfuck is a good term for it, both in terms of when it happened and in terms of trying to make sense of it in cross-cultural and feminist (or pro-feminist) terms.

Men who blame the victim often do so because it means absolving themselves of responsibility and protects their priviliged status.

Many women blame the victim because it allows them to pretend they have nothing to be afraid of.

With a decent amount of overlap occurring with regard to women supporting the status quo and men pretending that the women they love (or themselves) are safe.

Well, what triggered my familiarity with the “I woulda done such & such and it wouldn’t have happened to me” was specifically my MSF (motorcycle safety foundation) course. A guy had been in a wreck and totalled his bike. He took the course because he was second-guessing himself, thinking that there was something he should have done, some way he could have avoided the “elephant charging out of the train car.” We all grilled him pretty well about it, and most of us obviously felt there was *some* way *we* would have avoided that accident.

I’ve seen blaming the victim of accidents before and since, but only amongst other riders; because, to tell you the truth, I wouldn’t even accept that kind of feedback from non-riders without cusswords and hard feelings, and most of the riders I know feel the same way.

Even amongst riders, it is the people who have been there, who stopped at a light and saw two spinning cars coming their way and nowhere to go, who are the only ones who really know it ISN’T your fault. The others are still in denial.

Anyway. Quite a tangent. But the similarities did strike.

Shell

I find it interesting that you make the anology to riding a motorcycle. I can tell you, as a woman and a rider, that it isn’t other riders that will second guess, question, and tell you what you should or shouldn’t have done. It has been my experience that the people who’ll tell you those things, are those that have never ridden a bike and have no experience with it at all.

That’s the thing with blaming the victim, no one but the victim has ever been in that particular spot at that particular time. I don’t believe anyone has the right to second guess a victim’s behavior. Then again, that is just my opinion.

On the other hand, had I been raised as a Korean man, I might be better able to navigate that sort of thing.

It sucks that you fear being accused of rape when you go to borrow something from your young female neighbor. But the real problem isn’t that we don’t address these fears - it’s that we don’t address the dynamic that creates them: The social pressures that tells her that men are not be trusted - and the ones that tell you that men are not to be trusted (even if you know that you can be).

This is SUCH an important point! An exercise I have used with young men at the college where I teach:

1. I ask them to imagine that they are at a bar with some friends and a woman they know, a friend’s sister, a neighbor, classmate, someone other than a female relative (because I want to avoid here getting into, say, the sexual protectiveness a brother might feel for a sister) comes up to them and tells them she’s met this guy and she needs some advice.

2. She points to the bar at a man who looks to be about her age, is nicely dressed, and appears well-mannered. In other words, there is nothing about the way he looks that sets off any red flags. She says that they have been having the most amazing conversation; they have a lot of interests in common; he seems really sensitive; he’s funny and charming; not overly flirtatious, but he has let her know that he’s interested in her.

3. So here’s the question: He has asked her to take a walk around the corner to his apartment for a drink so they can continue their conversation in peace. She wants to go with him because she is definitely attracted to him, but she’s not sure if she should. She’s asking your advice, I tell the men. How many of you would tell her to go for it?

4. I have done this exercise three or four times so far, in both and male-only groups, and not a single man has raised his hand. When I ask them why, someone inevitably says the obvious, i.e., that she doesn’t know him; just because he looks/sounds okay doesn’t mean he is okay; he could have asked her to go to a diner or someplace quieter than the bar; and so on.

5. So, I tell them, you agree, then, that there is a problem out there with men, with us, that women have good reason not to trust us right off the bat. And since I assume, I continue–and of course I am giving here the abbreviated version of this–that no one in this room has ever committed rape–which I am aware may not be factually accurate, but is necessary rhetorically–you agree that this problem is not yours personally, that it is a social and cultural problem in terms of what we understand male heterosexuality to be….and I am sure that people in this discussion can fill in the rest.

6. What follows, usually, is a very awkward silence in which the men digest the fact that they too believe on some level that all men are at least potential sexual predators, and they start to talk and some of them have said the most remarkably honest things about themselves, about the ways have and have not behaved sexually and so on. I have no idea if this exercise has resulted in real and lasting transformation, but I do know that them who have participated in those conversations have, at least for a short time, had their consciousnesses, and the consciences, raised.

I’m sure this has already been pointed out, but there’s a psychological mechanism by which we blame victims in order to distance ourselves: SHE was raped because she did x, y and z; I don’t do any of those things, so I don’t have to identify with her and worry about rape.

An analogy, which applies to men: This kind of distancing happens in everyone who rides a motorcycle. The first thing your friends will discuss is what you should have done to avoid an accident. Completely egregious actions by car drivers will be construed as actions you SHOULD have anticipated and arranged to avoid. There will be extensive conversations about what you should do to protect yourself and what you should have done in this case.

This is because riding a m0torcycle IS an inherently risky choice, and people can only rationalize their continued risky riding if they can say “I would have done such&such and avoided the accident my pal had.” It is a necessary part of continuing to view the risks as acceptable and it marches exactly (IMO) with some women’s view of rape.

How it is that an *inherently dangerous* activity like riding a motorcycle in traffic can analogize with being female in our society is another matter. It’s a little to close for me.

I also just want to say that #55 is dead nuts on.

I distinctly remember my brother complaining once when trying to find an apartment that it was much harder for him as a guy because so few women were willing to live with guys they didn’t already know, but guys were willing to rent rooms out to women they didn’t know.

I think that had to be one of the most arrogant statements to ever come out of his mouth (and my brother’s ego is not small).

Yeah, it sucked for him that so many of the ads excluded men. However, when the reason is because not only are women told they are risking rape by living with men, but that this also means they are somehow at fault if they are gender blind and it backfires, the real problem is not that he had a harder time finding an apartment to share. The real problem is that we value women so little and how such a low opinion of men - not that certain individuals were willing to discriminate in order to keep themselves safe.

(Besides, it’s not as if many women reading the same ads were going to jump at renting a room from a strange man just because he were willing to rent it out to her - so in the end, the number of realistic choices available to both genders were just the same.)

It sucks that you fear being accused of rape when you go to borrow something from your young female neighbor. But the real problem isn’t that we don’t address these fears - it’s that we don’t address the dynamic that creates them: The social pressures that tells her that men are not be trusted - and the ones that tell you that men are not to be trusted (even if you know that you can be). This is part of what convinces you (for that moment) that accusations of rape or molestation are easy to believe (even when they rarely are in practice). It’s not just the “othering” of women - although I think that plays a big part - but the utter belief that it’s at least normal enough for men to want to do this that people will not express shock that it was done by such a normal person - even if society may express shock at who in particular did it or outrage that it was done (in their neighborhood).

Voicing such fears is important - but it can easily become counter-productive if the focus is on keeping a tally of what hurts whom - rather than how it’s all connected and what the root causes are.

Which I think is why so many were saying that what you were bringing up belongs in a male pro-feminist forum. You may not be crossing over fully over into the broken record of “but what about me!” - but you seem to be more in “share” mode than “share and analysis” mode.

And, by the way, Hershele, it’s nice to know that Jewish folklore sometimes comes to life–my son loves the story about you and the Chanuka goblins. ;)

and about the seemingly contradictory statements, i agree they seem contradictory. the kids at my school are quite high-functioning and well-adjusted, for the most part, and so when by the time i get to know them, i do trust them. so you’re right that my irrational fear is of the hypothetical kid (girl or boy) that claims i flirted or touched too much (i have to keep it to handshakes, high-5’s, and taps on the shoulder, pretty much…female teachers can get away with hugs) or made a sexually suggestive comment.

but what bothers me in the context of this post is the very fact that i’m not “supposed” to acknowledge this fear. i’m not supposed to because it makes me look like either a creep for even thinking about the possibility that an underage girl might possess some sexuality, or like i would not really believe a woman who claimed to be a rape victim. that’s why i think those men were so vociferous about labeling the incident as a rape.

i doubt i’m the only man with this fear, and i suspect that leaving this fear in eye-rolling territory is overall a detriment to the movement to prevent rape. maybe that’s the best way to summarize what i’ve been trying to say in my posts on this thread, so i’ll leave it at that.

I think pretty much everyone can separate the first from the other two. Misogynists like to claim that women call buyer’s remorse “rape” all the time, but I don’t buy it.

“Wrong sex” is what one might call stuff that should be rape, but isn’t. A lot of wrong sexual encounters would inevitably boil down to he-said-she-said. A lot of things that used to be wrong sex have been criminalized: sex with someone who’s extremely drunk, for example. A lot of stuff falls on the line between seduction and wrong sex.

Or this: a) I ask my girlfriend for sex (that’s in inexact way of putting it; I can’t be the only person in a long-term relationship who rarely makes this request verbally) and while she’s not interested specifically, it doesn’t cost her anything and makes me happy, so she grants bare consent*. Or b) she worries I’ll get angry if she says no. Or c) she worries, based on the general tenor of my personality, that I’ll get angry if she declines. Or d) she fears, based on past experience with me, that I’ll get angry if she says no. Or she fears I’ll get abusive if she says no, e) in general or f) based on the general tenor of my personality or g) based on past experience with me.

(g) is probably rape, and (f) might be too. The rest I don’t think are. Or should be, though I’m open to argument. But I wouldn’t hesitate to classify, at least, (d) and probably (c) as wrong sex.

What about if I don’t ask, but simply say “we’re going to have sex now” h) when she’s really into it or i) when she’s not thinking about sex at all or j) when she’s not in the mood or k) when she’s mad at me?

What if it’s not my girlfriend but (a’-k’) someone I’m dating; that is, we’re not at the boyfriend-girlfriend stage yet?

Most of these 11 situations are wrong if not illegal. I don’t know if it’s practical or useful to outlaw many of them.

As for the Polymath discussion: I have a non-trivial sex life, and I’m not afraid of rape accusations. I could just be naive, I suppose.

*All hypothetical, except occasionally (h)

Just a few days ago, a woman told me her husband penetrated her best friend while she was drunk and sleeping on the floor. She was amazed when I used the word “rape” in my next question about the event.

The corker was a woman who, in an initial interview, said she had never been sexually abused. When I couldn’t match the number of children she had to the number of husbands/partners she’d had, she said “Oh, that other one was by my father–I was 14.”

Often, women claim they were not raped because they do not want to “betray” a family member, co-worker, or friend of the family. Also, early on, when they are 13, 14, and 15, they are told by their family members that the rapes they experienced were not rapes. Family members frequently blame the victim, or they simply don’t want to get involved in a legal experience. I think that, as a result, these girls enter womanhoood with rape re-defined for them.

This discussion would be better handled among men (thus, I agree with Richard.) Anyway, thanks for honesty, Polymath.

i don’t distrust the 14-year-old girls i teach.

Perhaps I misread you, Polymath:

i mean, my career (as a teacher) could be ruined by one upset, troubled, deluded 14-year-old kid (girl or boy) who wanted revenge and accused me of even improperly looking at him or her.

I read this as a certain level of distrust and fear. I apologize if this wasn’t your intention, perhaps you only illustrated a point. Or perhaps you mean that you only fear hypothetical 14 year old false accuser girls.

(No offense in all this, I’m just blunt)

Just for the record, my name is Richard, not Robert, though maybe I should change it. For some reason, people have been calling me Robert all my life. :)