Just as transex people can and do come in all sizes and colours/cultures, fat people are also in that same category. In other words there are many fat transex people out there, none of whom feel as strung out about their weight, then they do about the sex they have been designated as.

Being fat, while it does have some negative implications, many people are willing to allow people to be over weight more then they are willing to allow that person who has just told others of their intention to bring their body closer inline with their mind, or gender.

We know that childhood suicide is to high and that many times it is caused by peer pressure. We also know that too many queer youth leave school sitting the inability to go through one day without some sort of taunting and or violence.

We also know, from the Amnesty International study, which came out last spring, that police in many U.S. cities treat LBTG people harsher then non LBTG people. Putting it mildly.
http://www.gaypeopleschronicle.com/stories06/march/0331062.htm

I suspect you would be hard pressed to find the same study dealing with people who might be “fat”.

The term fat, in my mind, is subjective. What might be fat to one person might not be to another and there are all sorts of levels of “fat”.

Someone mentioned that it all is similar because it deals with body issues. I can see their point but I also have to say that is over simplification.

Myself, a transex person, I can say that since too early of an age I can remember having a feeling that my body was not right. That for some reason I looked, genital wise, more like my brothers then my sister. I didn’t have words or terms for it way back then. Just that I knew it wasn’t how it was supposed to be.

I think the term, woman in man’s body or vise versa is or was an attempt to help others try to understand the pain many felt, but like anything it really does not work right either.
I tend to just say I am a woman, I had a medical problem and it’s now corrected. Many people have medical issues at birth; it’s no huge deal right?

Wrong. Society continues to tell us we are mentally ill, that we should have therapy. People loose their jobs and families. Hell I lost my job of almost 10 years two days after; I had to fight like hell to remain an integral part of my child’s life.

The person who gained a lot of weight does not face that same pressure, they do not have to be concerned about the taunting of their children if others find out.
People who are over weight also do not have to face a shrink before they can get medical support.

Don’t get me wrong I know it’s not all sliced bread for those people who are over weight. One good friend and I were talking this morning, after taking our kids to school. She was telling me it’s been a while since her last physical exam. She hates going because she knows she is over weight and hates the look or “tich tiching” sound of her doctor as she stands on the scale. So she avoids going unless absolutely necessary.

Many transex people also avoid going to doctors, similar reason, unless they have a good doctor who knows and understands. I’m lucky I have such a doctor now, but a number of years back I didn’t. The experience I had with her has left me in such distress that I will not go to any doctor but my own.
So no matter the pain or issue, it’s me waiting for my monthly appointment. That also caused my death two years back when I continued to wait it out while suffering pain. Eventually I was taken by ambulance to the hospital were they learned of a ruptured appendix. My doctor told me it was very close with all the poison that had infected my body.

So again, as I stay off path are they the same. No.

How can any two things be the same? There are other transex people on this site that I have read their postings and each has differing views. That shows that we are all not the same so to say the feelings or pressures are the same between transex and “fat” people just cannot be the same, anymore then the issue of black civil rights and gay rights are the same. They can’t be the same when for years one was a slave and the other was not. They can not be the same when one brings ridicule of most, the other of some.

I would also like to take this point to say that I disagree on the comment about les people having surgery now, then before. I could not count the number of different surgeons in the world who do SRS. A smaller but ever growing amount of surgeons are out there also now doing body surgery for transex people.

The change I do see is that now instead of being satisfied in just having SRS, least wise for the transex women, SRS tends to be the last surgery only followed after face surgery and the experimental voice surgery. Because we are a visual society many feel that it’s now about presentation, what people see outwardly.

It’s kind of scary since the old Gender Clinics used to push such an attitude. The women were to have an ultra feminine name, nothing that could be either or. They needed to wear dresses at all times and makeup, because they wanted people to see the dress and think female. And the women were not permitted into the program if they love women, as they were “not in the business of creating lesbians”.

So I watch many focus on creating this ultra beauty look through surgery and to them that is being female, having bottom surgery can wait.
But in no way is there less surgery today then before, I jus think the numbers of transex people have increased and the number of younger people transitioning, who have so much less money, has increased ten fold.

The implication being that those who desire such know their needs and lives less well than others do, are somehow more susceptible to pressure from societal norms (when in actuality - only say 3 to 5% of transgender people actually get GRS - so the pressure to not get such - has been much more prevalent) - and really - if it’s better that fewer are doing so - it’s hard to say there is no value judgement being placed upon those who do.

For those who aren’t transgender reading this - too often transgender poeple from either group project subtle (at least in public - much less subtle in private) shade upon the authenticity of other groups experinece.

Nah, that’s your socially-conditioned brainwashed brain talking :)

Do you have a guess about what percentage of fat people experience the sense that they’re actually supposed to be in a thin body? I don’t think it would be nearly as universal as it is for transsexuals.

I wonder if short men experience a socially-conditioned sense that they’re actually supposed to be in a taller body? Even though shortness is obviously genetic, I think that some short men would report that they feel that their shortness is treated as if it was a moral deficiency.

Nice post. I do want to add my cents.

I resisted surgeries for a number of years on hormonrs. Eight to be exact.

Then I wanted to get married. My birth state would change my birth certificate, but not without surgery. My birth state determined that top surgery was sufficient to change my birth certificate.

I chose to have a complete hysto, and both my primary care and ob/gyn, concurred that after nine years on hormones, such surgery was healthy and warranted.

Finally, I do not believe I was born in the wrong body. I did not like the constellation of experiences that arose from the intersection of my body, society, labels, etc. Changing my body has been one way to redirect and transform that attention.

Best,
Jay

- Society assumes fat is totally *malleable.*
- It therefore insists fat people *can* change and *must* try.
- It’s therefore subversive for fat people to *accept* their physical state.

- Society assumes gender is totally “fixed”.
- It therefore insists transexuals really *can’t* change and *must not* try.
- It’s therefore subversive for transexuals to *reject* their physical state.

What’s underlying our respective oppresions is society’s cartoonish assumptions about what is “fixed,” and what is not. But society seems to get it wrong in the opposite ways here. Therefore fat acceptance advocates and transsexuals have to fight messages the other side might find liberating. “Take control of your body” for fat advocates vs. “biology is destiny” for transexuals.

Yes, both fat people and transexuals experience alienation from the body, but it’s like we’re passing each other while moving in opposite directions. The fat acceptance movement is trying to get fat people to reject the internal ideal body image (the “thin person” inside every fat woman just waiting to get out according to diet ads) and move towards acceptance of outward appearance. Meanwhile transexuals are trying to affirm that alienation from the outward appearance in a quest to affirm the internal body image.

Gender identity is not something that is societally imposed; how one expresses their gender identity is. Gender identity is not imposed by genitalia; for most people, however, they are synonomous. Gender identity is not a conscious choice; having surgery to alter one’s body to conform to societal standards is.

Yes, being overweight and being a transsexual are both about degrees of discomfort with the body one inhabits. In the case of being overweight, the deviation from the externally applied societal norm - the “fit, not fat” ideal - generally dictates the overweight person’s discomfort. However, for us trannies, the discomfort is entirely internally generated; our bodies don’t match our own mental identity. No person deliberately and consciously chooses their gender or their sex, and for the overwhelming majority that’s not a problem because the two are in congruence. But for some of us that’s not the case.

And just FYI, I’ve never felt like I was “trapped in the wrong body”, only that somehow I didn’t look right. (Maybe I’m not a classic transsexual, but then again, why should I fit that mold if I don’t fit any others?) The closest analogy I can offer is to imagine that every now and then when you look in the mirror that the reflection you see is off somehow - like maybe the room behind you is wrong or the light is different. Of course, I’ve done what I can to make my reflection correct.

Of course all aspects of self-conception are influenced by social forces, but that doesn’t mean every aspect of everyone’s self-conception is best regarded solely or principally as the result of social pressure to accept that role.

I’m not convinced we are nearly as hard-wired to our gender as we are led to believe and I have to wonder if a greater acceptance of a more diverse gender identity might be a means to addressing some transexuality concerns. The problem there, obviously, is that while changing the world is the most effective treatment, it may also be unrealistic at worst.

This doesn’t seem to be borne out by the conformity-quotient of transpeople in general. If this is so, why are there transpeople who take steps to become visibly incongruent? Why would any

I would also point out that in a culture where fat is so consistantly assaulted and where options for living in a fat body so consistantly dismissed, I don’t think internalized fat hatred can really be seen as a choice. That is what is imposed upon us. We can choose to reject it, but I think fat hatred is absolutely a learned behavior which we are all subjected to. The choice is taken out of our hands from the start, and given the grave situation offered fat people, for most a choice never remotely exists. It is a “choice” as inconceivable as choosing not to breathe. In this, I do really see a parallel to some transsexual issues in so far as gender identity has an element of learned behavior to it. I’m not convinced we are nearly as hard-wired to our gender as we are led to believe and I have to wonder if a greater acceptance of a more diverse gender identity might be a means to addressing some transexuality concerns. The problem there, obviously, is that while changing the world is the most effective treatment, it may also be unrealistic at worst.

Which brings us back to the situation facing fat people. The most effective treatment is remaking society’s attitudes towards fat people, in my opinion. But the chances of success on this measure is, at the least, a long way off. Nevertheless, there is no reasonable alternative treatment. The promise of becoming thin is not a realistic one, either. However, our culture tells us it is. I would suggest that not only are fat people not often lovers of food eating prodigious quantities for personal enjoyment, they are also not often fat due to emotional issues as is also often suggested. I do think most fat people have profound issues with food, but I don’t think that’s the cause of their fatness. Indeed, in our culture, I’d say its a symptom. Because fatness is presumed to be caused by overeating, in notable absense of proof, all “treatments” of fatness involve restrained eating. This is a recipe for creating major psychological issues relating to food. WLS does little to stop these issues by surgically imposing anorexia on its patients. Anorexia is obviously a great way of losing weight, but that doesn’t mean the person isn’t still consumed with food issues. We recognized disoredered eating as a major problem, and yet this is what fat people are encouraged to participate in.

Piny can correct me if I’m wrong (my knowledge of trans surgery is likely to remain theoretical for the rest of my natural life), but I was under the impression that surgery such as hysto for trans guys is recommended after a certain period on hormones because the female parts have ceased to function due to the hormones and are at risk of developing various unpleasant complications.

Yes, but that’s only in the context of transitioning in the first place; if we equate the way transpeople feel prior to transition (including GRS) with the way fat people feel prior to bariatric surgery, transition is not of the good.

Some doctors recommend it and some don’t. The calculus is based on age, family history of reproductive cancer, personal discomfort (both dysphoria and problems like cramping and PCOS), and some other factors. It’s like the cost-benefit applied to women, with a couple of obvious differences. It’s definitely not a one-size-fits all prescription. Some doctors don’t seem to feel that hysterectomy is necessary in general. This is another thing that’s changing as the cohort starts transition younger; a hysterectomy around menopause age is a very different thing than one undergone in the mid-twenties. Another important change is in the number of transguys who want to preserve their option of bearing children. Another another important change is that transguys are starting to demand and receive responsible care for their bodies; one of the reasons hysto is recommended is that transguys tend not to want to see gynecologists and may not even want to disclose to their physicians. That’s just as risky for us as it is for non-trans people.

i’d also agree with mindalyn’s point in #12. i faced quite a bit of opposition regarding my transition from family, friends, co-workers, and even strangers on the street. and even many who at first appeared to be supportive, remained at a distance during and after my transition.

on the other hand, many of my former co-workers often supported each other during their attempts at losing weight, engaging in contests, sharing “slimfast” supplies, and parties when goals were met.

when my goal was achieved, i was laid off. and i have to believe that relates to piny’s point about the whole “freak” issue. of course my new co-workers, who never knew me before and only know me as nexy, seem to like me just fine. though i also believe i would “disgust” them if they knew my medical history.

Piny can correct me if I’m wrong (my knowledge of trans surgery is likely to remain theoretical for the rest of my natural life), but I was under the impression that surgery such as hysto for trans guys is recommended after a certain period on hormones because the female parts have ceased to function due to the hormones and are at risk of developing various unpleasant complications.

Surgeries which, I might note, involve modifying or removing perfectly functional pieces of anatomy. Surgeries that are not removing disease or repairing damage, and isn’t that what surgery ought to be? What do you all think about non-medicinal surgeries?

Okay, this is why I was a little leery of this comparison.

See my above post about the respective risks. And see Amp’s points about social pressure.

Also: Hi! I’m a transsexual. Prior to starting hormones, I suffered from severe dysphoria–so much so that things like intimacy, human relationships, even leaving the house were very, very difficult. I was desperately unhappy. Unhappy doesn’t even describe it–it just didn’t work. Now that I’ve started hormones, I am a much happier, calmer, better-adjusted person. I relate to my body as most people seem to. Most of the transpeople I’ve spoken with feel similarly. In most cases, physical transition up to and including SRS makes us functional people.

Incidentally, now I struggle with socially-imposed body dysphoria: I’m a freak. I have to inhabit a body which me perfectly happy, but which disgusts other people. This experience is new to me as of transition, as it happens.

Surgeries which, I might note, involve modifying or removing perfectly functional pieces of anatomy. Surgeries that are not removing disease or repairing damage, and isn’t that what surgery ought to be? What do you all think about non-medicinal surgeries?

I’ve watched a few episodes of “Extreme Makeover” and I’ll admit I’m torn about cosmetic surgery in cases of people who got dealt a genuinely bad hand in terms of appearance. Correlation between that and fat?