What do you think that Jesus’s take on either abortion or the abortion debate would be?

I am assuming that this is because Grace believes that the fetus is a conscious living being/soul. others, who don’t see any reason to limit abortion, in and of itself, do not. and yet, as Grace says, she too wants to keep it legal, because she understands that there are shades of grey in the practicalities here.

I don’t think it’s reasonable or useful to challenge those core beliefs on either side. ultimately this comes down to an existential question that really isn’t one that anyone has any sort of definitive answer to., but often feel -really really- strongly about. And, going into challenging -that- presents cans of worms and deep sore spots that–at least in cases like this–really aren’t all that germaine to the problem-solving. or, at least, maybe not as much so as some people think.

instead, maybe, we could focus on “harm reduction,” starting with the woman who is carrying whatever-it-is-she’s-carrying, however you define it, and then what are the best ways to go about this.

me, too.

sigh.

um, Susan, that’s…very thoughtful of you, but, well, i don’t know as anyone -here- is in immediate crisis or nothin’. i could of course be wrong.

but, also, what A.J. Luxton said.

how -actually- “rare” this means in actual numbers, well, that’s a different story. Abortion will always be with us, i think that’s clear. and I do see why people are leery about “safe legal and rare” in that it can be used as a lever for crap like partial-abortion bans, mandatory wait periods, mandatory ultrasounds and all these other forms of chipping away and harassment. Which is NOT, let me be clear, what I am for.

but, this is a good argument for using with people who think it’s a necessary evil, who -really do- want it “safe legal and rare”; pointing out the reality that -if- it’s safe and legal and all the other factors we’re all fighting for (yes? yes) are in place, the numbers do in fact tend to go down.

iow, “meet where you’re at.”

i just think that politically speaking it makes more sense to take that tactic, depending on context, than to keep trying to simply bang the drum ever louder that it’s no different from any other surgical procedure: -you- may not think so, but a lot of people -really really- believe otherwise, -even ones who aren’t stupid or fanatics and don’t want to go back to the days of back alleys and coat hangers either.-

because there are a -lot- of those people, self-defining by either label or none at all.

Or if you want to keep the baby, I will get you money and services. YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

Your life is infinitely valuable. The life of your baby is infinitely valuable. There is no conflict here. Call me.

I am also pro choice because I am pragmatic

My mother burned her bra and I gave up a great career to raise children.

Because my mother’s bra burned it was a choice not an absolute…

If you’ve ever had a baby and been to the Doc for an ultrasound you looked at the tiny little heartbeat and fell in love. You thanked G-d, kissed your husband and glowed in the knowledge that a baby was growing in you.

I suspect that a woman not wanting that baby would see it as a growth akin to a cancer…

It saddens me and I think she’s wrong but I wouldn’t want her raising a child she doesn’t want

And I wouldn’t want her to die in the process of aborting that child.

And because of that I am pro choice.

Not because I think your choice is a good one, not because I think G-d will forgive you but because I think your life has value.

But if you decide to keep your baby, to put it up for adoption I will support you like no other. I will call you a hero and I will buy your maternity clothes and feed you ice cream with pickles.

I realize that not everyone believes it’s a baby

But no one should die for a mistake.

But I know personally three women who gave their children up for adoption, and none of them felt that their having given up their child represented closure:

The happiest day of my life was when I received a letter from Children’s Aid saying that my daughter was looking for me.

Oh, that’s me. Didn’t you get the memo?

Lenoire - But everyone, no matter how supposedly “liberal” they are, seems to feel that they have to talk about how bad and tragic abortion is, and how only women who are somehow trashy and slutty have them, and how girls and women need to take responsibility so it doesn’t happen.

I didn’t say a word equating the badness of abortion with women being trashy and slutty. I loathe arguments like that. I’ve heard far too many stories from profoundly responsible and moral women making the decision to abort for ALL KINDS of valid reasons, to fall for that claptrap. And as for responsibility, IMHO it’s society’s responsibility to make free contraception, comprehensive sex education and universal healthcare and childcare available to everyone, and THEN we can start talking about whether women are irresponsible if we get pregnant accidentally.

Gengwall - I really think Jesus would have a much different take on the abortion debate than your typical pro-life conservative Christian.

Amen!!

Well, in my opinion, limiting abortion DOES have value in and of itself. As I said in my first post. I think it’s better to prevent unwanted pregnancies, even by methods that have annoying side effects, than to terminate them.

What are those values? Why do you think limiting abortion is a good thing in and of itself (not that the changes need to reduce abortion rates are positive changes - that I agree with) .

I have no problem with you deciding that you will put up with certain annoying side effects in order to avoid abortion. I do have a problem with you thinking that decision is right for other women. How bad would the side effects from a particular form of birth control have to be before you’d think it was ok to switch to a less effective form of birth control? I don’t think anyone but the woman gets to decide that.

50.6% of those NZ women were using NO birth control. What is keeping them from doing so? Finances? Abusive relationships? Rape? Bad health care? Ignorance? Let’s find out and deal with those causes.

Right but saying ‘abortion is bad’ isn’t dealing with those causes. Dealing with those causes is about improving sex education, and the power women have in society, and the health system. Hand-wringing over abortion doesn’t make any of those systems any easier to change.

If we think that saying “abortion is bad, but it should be legal and accessible because the alternatives are worse, but let’s do everything we can to make it rarer, if not actually rare” is a “mixed message” that’s too complicated for people to accept, then we’re making the same kind of argument used against comprehensive sex education by people who think it’s “too complicated” to tell 14-year-olds “we don’t think you should be having sex but IF you do here’s how to protect yourself”.

You put mixed message in scare quotes - no one has actually used the phrase in the post.

I don’t say anything starting ‘abortion is bad…’ because I don’t think abortion is bad. It’s got nothing to do with mixed messages.

On the “abortion on demand without apology” vs. “safe, legal and rare” debate–I have to side with Thomas and Maia here. In theory, Grace, you may be right about the nuance issue, but in practice? “Safe, legal and rare” sounds apologetic. Especially from the context of United States politics. What wouldn’t I give to hear a prominent politician call fro abortion on demand without apology? But everyone, no matter how supposedly “liberal” they are, seems to feel that they have to talk about how bad and tragic abortion is, and how only women who are somehow trashy and slutty have them, and how girls and women need to take responsibility so it doesn’t happen.

One of the strengths of the pro-choice movement is that it accepts the messiness and complexity of real life.Man I hate admitting this but you are quite correct. That points out another paradox for conservative Christians (such as myself). The model we are supposed to be basing our policy and personal decisions on, namely Jesus, very much was in tune to “the messiness and complexity of real life”. I really think Jesus would have a much different take on the abortion debate than your typical pro-life conservative Christian.

Well, in my opinion, limiting abortion DOES have value in and of itself. As I said in my first post. I think it’s better to prevent unwanted pregnancies, even by methods that have annoying side effects, than to terminate them. (Obviously, death is more than annoying. But not many women actually DIE from taking the pill, and those who do are often doing things, like smoking, that they’ve been specifically told they shouldn’t do while taking it.)

50.6% of those NZ women were using NO birth control. What is keeping them from doing so? Finances? Abusive relationships? Rape? Bad health care? Ignorance? Let’s find out and deal with those causes. Unwanted pregnancy, and therefore abortion, will be reduced. And that’s a GOOD thing.

If we think that saying “abortion is bad, but it should be legal and accessible because the alternatives are worse, but let’s do everything we can to make it rarer, if not actually rare” is a “mixed message” that’s too complicated for people to accept, then we’re making the same kind of argument used against comprehensive sex education by people who think it’s “too complicated” to tell 14-year-olds “we don’t think you should be having sex but IF you do here’s how to protect yourself”. One of the strengths of the pro-choice movement is that it accepts the messiness and complexity of real life. We shouldn’t let extremists force us into simple, morally untenable positions. We should be doing it to them!!

That’s why, though I’d like unwanted pregnancy and therefore abortion to virtually disappear, I prefer to say “abortion on demand without apology” loud and clear and to never say SL&R.

Point well taken.