So, yeah, all this was a twisty turn introduction to say that I scanned and posted an excerpt from Patricia Hill Collins, Black Feminist Thought: Knowledge, Consciousness, and the Politics of Empowerment. Collins isn’t making an argument to suppo…

So, yeah, all this was a twisty turn introduction to say that I scanned and posted an excerpt from Patricia Hill Collins, Black Feminist Thought: Knowledge, Consciousness, and the Politics of Empowerment. Collins isn’t making an argument to suppo…

i really didn’t want to enter any of the useless demagogy and polemic fights going on here, because no one is really listening to each other, seems like. people are just pushing their own ideologies onto one another and i have no time nor desire to partake in it. just wanted to offer my opinion - my radical opinion [a ‘rant’ as it was called]. but, glad that at least SOMEONE understood and appreciated.

peace.

Thanks for nothing.">

[Post deleted by author’s requiest]

[Post deleted by Ampersand.]

Actually, there are a lot of awesome posts here.

Nubian, thanks for being willing to blog here, and I’m sorry it was not a good experience. I think the fact your thread turned into a flame war shows what a contentious issue you wrote about.

All I was saying was that it’s fine and dandy to say argue against the validity of “gender trumps race” but if you don’t also mention that race doesn’t “trump” gender, it can look like that’s what you’re trying to say. As a lurker myself who doesn’t personally “know” who’s speaking, I don’t “know” that someone who passionately argues against the idea of gender “trumping” race ALSO believes that race does not trump gender.

I was not trying to comment on any specific post. I was just trying to comment, in general, what can happen in certain discussions (not even limited to race discussions) when people don’t lay all their cards out straight away — it can lead to assumptions that are seriously off-base.

That said, the discussion here has been very interesting, and mostly assumption-free, as far as I can tell.

I am not as intellectual as you people, but I can assure you that 15 years in an inter-racial, heterosexual relationship I have learned that the differences between men and women are far greate than any racial difference.

Debbie and I get along fine. She doesn’t watch NFL football with me, and I don’t go clothes-shopping at the mall with her.

Y’all can probably philosophize for weeks on end about oppresion and exploitation and master/slave surrogate relationships or something like that and have a great time doing it.

We don’t waste our time on that crap. We just love and support each other, and put up with each other’s flaws and get along with each other.

I think some of you people need to do less thinking and more hugging.

:)

- R

However, I think it’s a little more complicated than just absence. Whiteness functions as absence in many/most circumstances… but in some interracial dynamics, the perception of whiteness does become racialized, I think.

For instance, it seems to me that most white college students entering liberal universities encounter a point where they are suddenly, for the first time, asked to encounter themselves as white. And their reaction to this is often white guilt, which strikes me not as a reaction of absence, but a reaction of racialization. Suddenly coming to terms with the idea that they have a race, and that their race is complicit with very bad things, and that in fact this is not just a historical phenomenon, but something they need to deal with in the classroom — and the self-consciousness that stems from this — seems very racialized to me. (It seems to me that students experiencing white guilt also often become tongue tied, because they aren’t used to having to filter all their thoughts and words through the perception of their race & privilege.)

Likewise, I do think that a white woman can be raped in a way where her race is an issue rather than an absence. For instance, my (white, Jewish) mother was raped during the seventies by a black man. Her perception of the situation (I don’t know enough details to know if it’s accurate, but will assume here it was) was that she would not have been raped if she was black; she was working for a predominantly black church at the time in a predominantly black area in Georgia. After stealing the money she was keeping accounts on, the man raped her at gunpoint. I believe he called her a white bitch, that she was being punished for being out of place.

I assume in this case (perhaps wrongly) that raping my mother was a way for this man to act out his anger at white supremacy, and that her body became a symbolic substitute for whiteness.

For me, deconstructing this incident, I would probably look at race before gender.

Anyway, I guess this isn’t really saying anything new, except that I don’t think whiteness is always blank. However, I don’t want to put undue emphasis on this particular example; I am aware that, in many ways, it’s an exception.

this, i’m sure, isn’t exclusive to white people (or to men), but i only know myself.

peace and blessings

*this applies, too, to class, sexuality, able-bodiedness, age, etc.

I see what you’re saying, and yes, I agree. This is why I can’t accept statements by some that women are raped as women. Some are raped as black women or Jewish women or Latina women; it’s the confluence of their gender with their specific ethnic/racial identity. Yes, as has been pointed out, gender is a commonality here, which is why we’re not talking about the rape of white men vs. black men. But although that commonality exists, the experiences are still very different because of racial/class elements. Very often the experiences are too different to gloss over as all being part of the same oppression.

I guess what I’m resistant to is the notion that race *does not* affect white women. Or that if a white woman chooses to focus on gender first, rather than race, she is excluding any and all implications of race for WOC. Maybe that’s not even being said… although a few posters above have indicated that race does not affect white women.

1) I think “white” is perceived as being not-really-a ““race, as the absence of race. Like, white people are the default and then there are other groups that are “racial” or “ethnic.” Now, not being white, I don’t know if this is how white people experience race. But I would argue that often when race affects white women, and white people in general, it’s the absence of race that’s actually in play.

2) I don’t think anyone’s saying that if a white woman focuses on gender first she’s excluding all race implications for women of color. All I see is people objecting to the blanket statement “gender trumps race.”

But this still begs the question … what if some white women disagree with nubian. Does that immediately stem from their privilege?

To be perfectly honest? I’d say yes. I think that, using your words, “putting all women ahead of all men, regardless of primary, secondary, or tertiary relations of gender, race, or class” is an option only open to white privileged women. I can’t do that. Most other women of color in this thread also are skeptical of their ability to do that. And if you as a white feminist expect me to do that (which I know you haven’t said you do), then yeah, I think that’s racist and unbelievably arrogant and presumptuous.

What I meant more specifically is that when men who are black rape, they are not significantly different vis-a-vis the rape, then white men who rape.

Hmm. I’m not sure I agree or disagree with this. It’s an interesting point to bring up. You don’t think black men’s oppression could color their motivations for rape? Or that being raped by a black man, whatever the color of his victim, couldn’t have a different political and possibly emotional context than being raped by a white man? (NOT saying it’s more justified or less painful and degrading, obviously. Just suggesting that it might be qualitatively different in some ways).

I do think though that “gender trumps race” is a useful and situationally correct tool … when needed and when applied with a broader understanding that there is no hierarchy of oppression. At some time, when all the cards are down, there will be an instance when gender does trump race. And vice versa.

I whole-heartedly agree. There are lots of specific situations where you can say “okay, in this case, race [or gender, or class] is the most important factor.” It’s the blanket statements I object to.

For me, allthough it wasn’t actually a rape, it meant constanly questining myself and thinking about why someone would feel that sort of aggression towards me. What did I do - how did I behave? How did I come across? Could he have misunderstood me or was my worth really so low in a mans eyes that he would do this?

My privilege and naivité up to this point in life (Iwas only seventeen) made it difficult for me to understand the situation. Today I would say that his actions then were due to his misogynic view on women but then I didn’t have the ability to look at the larger structure and instead put a lot of doubt on my self.

If he had said stuff that made it clear that his actions were due to some sort of community of wich I was a part I wouldn’t have put so much upon myself and my sense of self wouldn’t have suffered as much damage.

Possibly it might have made it worse in other ways that I cannot understand. Still, from my viewpoint, rape and assault hurts worse when they come from a personal angle than when they are due to the perpetrators reaction to external factors and not you personally.

This is why I really can’t see the priviledge of being raped without racist motivations behind the deed.

And as for rape being primarily about gender, I think that is obvious. Why else has noone talked about being raped as a black man versus being raped as a white man? Because people are raped as women, that’s why.

There’s nothing wrong with disagreement, but there’s a difference between doing that and throwing out statements like nubian said this and she really didn’t to forumalate your argument against. I have seen more mistatements made about her postings here than anyone who has posted a column at this blog at least recently, which struck me as odd at first because her postings at least do not seem to be ones that would create much confusion.

I think ginmar’s presumption that “gender does NOT trump race” meant that she and other White feminists did not consider race important, was premature, but it’s a response I often hear or read from White feminists. Granted, her posting being used in a column did put her on the spot and maybe on the defensive, but she did put the statement out there and a woman decided to challenge it from her own experiences and perspective.

I read Ginmar’s statement to mean that she puts all women ahead of all men, regardless of primary, secondary, or tertiary relations of gender, race, or class.

But saying you do with words and then being dismissive to women of color when they disagree with you and accusing them of doing this(saying Black men never rape or All White women lie about rape(borrowed from another thread)) and not doing this(having discussions about sexism and violence within their own communities) was unfair. I can understand why women of color here and at nubian’s blog stated how offensive they found hers and others words. It seemed to me whether some folks intended it or not, that they wrote off entire sections of the history and present day realities of Black feminism and other feminist ideologies of women of color as well as the discussions which women of color have on these issues among themselves. Simply because White women aren’t present or privy, doesn’t mean they don’t happen.

To chastize women of color for not dealing with issues(I guess not in the way she would like) when you have no real knowlege that they don’t is patronizing to say the least. The only thing those words do is just about guarantee they will not have those discussions in your presense.

listen up, white “sisters”:

get over yourselves. essentially, it is not HOW we say it, but WHAT we say that’s important. and sometimes you’re NOT the ones who know the absolute, irrefutable truth. the least you could do (if you really don’t want to be perceived by us as just another ‘oppressor’) is to say, “ok, i might not understand exactly what you’re talking about because i haven’t lived as a woman of color, and the only oppression i’ve ever encountered is patriarchy. however, i understand that your life experiences as a person of color leads you to form your own identities and your own resistances, and i respect that. and i’m not going to jam my shit down your throats trying to silence and erase you. and i’m not going to claim until i turn blue that you’re not enlightened enough and not conscious enough to define your own reality.”

fight against patriarchy does NOT equal all other fights for everybody. for YOU it does, because that’s the only conceivable cause for you all to unite (being on top of the socially-constructed racial hierarchy and not having to be seen as more ‘exotic’, more submissive, more agreeable, more sexualized, more oppressible, more coercible, more victimizable, more tempting to rape and humiliate… on a daily basis). but that’s NOT the case for the people who have had to fight against something much greater and much more mind-numbing our whole lives. gender oppression alone does NOT explain the plight of women of color, as opposed to that of yours. if you ask us, the first oppressor any conscious woman of color would identify off the bat, would be White Supremacy. and want it or not, you do NOT have to fight against it because you ARE PART OF IT. and by denying us our voices and by attacking our words, you are only reinforcing and proving to us that the fight against White Domination (be it in the form of male or female) is ultimately our single, most important purpose. because unlike you, we are always viewed as strippers OF COLOR, mothers OF COLOR, lesbians OF COLOR, activists OF COLOR, professionals OF COLOR, with all the accompanying circumstances and social stigma attached to that. and this ‘of color’ suffix changes a whole lot of shit for us on many different levels.

i never identity myself as just a *woman* ““ my fundamental identity in this world is *woman of color*, which already, in and of itself, signifies that i have at least two oppressors ““ white supremacy and patriarchy. Moreover, for me the patriarchy is always secondary to white supremacy. and in most of my personal fights men ARE my comrades ““ my blood brothers, my fathers, my uncles, my cousins, and all brothers OF COLOR. we together bear the burden of being racially profiled, generalized, stereotyped and humiliated. we together understand what it feels like NOT TO BE WHITE, we together fight it, hate it and support each other in spirit against it. there’s no ‘male racism’ and ‘female racism’ to me, there’s just one, atrocious, omnipresent, demoralizing racism that we (women and men of color) understand and fight in concert. and in a lot of ways, it is YOU, white feminists, who i have to fight against in order to reassert my position in the society ““ much like in this very debate, which i find absolutely ridiculous.

it is YOUR restless anxiety to always be right that’s dividing us. your truth is NOT women of color’ truth. period. just because you’re not aware of something doesn’t mean it’s not there. because you haven’t lived in a certain way doesn’t mean that nobody does. because you haven’t experienced something doesn’t mean it’s not real. because you find something incomprehensible and unrealistic, doesn’t mean it’s bullshit.

and for those who are much too quick to label us ‘whiney’ and to dismiss our own stories of OUR OWN TRUTH as absurd, i have only this to say: if anyone is ‘whiney’, it must be you because all you can see and focus on is your poor, oppressed, repressed, misunderstood, manipulated, denied, defied, misinterpreted little selves. no-one’s had it as hard as you have; therefore, your oppression is the only AUTHENTIC one, right?