Does it have effects outside of the relative absense of women from the ranks?

Yes, I think what alsis said is true. Women who report the crimes of rape, domestic violence and stalking have often encountered great difficulties because of sexism in police departments. It took years for rape to be taken seriously by police departments, for example, a problem that still exists today.

In Austin, Texas for example, there was a woman arrested for DUI who was in jail for two days, and she requested a rape kit exam. The police department refused to do one and I think she sued.

Police departments used to believe that domestic violence was a “private matter”(especially in their own households).

Police officers are disproportionately represented in domestic violence, and also have been involved in stalking cases as well(often in relation to the DV.). They access professional databases for personal reasons, which has happened in various police departments and their training makes them very good at engaging in behaviors to cover their tracks when it comes to DV. I did not know about LE and DV until I was at a conference and attended a DV round table. Over half the women there reported DV from LE officers.

The most well-known case involved Chief David Brame in Tacoma, Washington, who shot his wife,Crystal(who later died) and then himself in a parking lot in front of their kids. He had a history of both DV and sexual assault.

Less than 50% of all departments even has a policy to address DV in house. Often, cases are not investigated at all. Sometimes, the women who report it have to face not only their spouse or boyfriend, but also his friends in the department.

Sexual assault by LE officers onduty is unfortunately a serious problem. Either by force or coersion(by threatening arrest). The women most targeted are those with criminal records, because even if the LE officer gets charged, the defense lawyer can say, the women are liars, look at their records. Very rarely, do they get prosecuted and/or convicted.

Walkhill, New York Police Department faced a state issued consent decree because of a series of incidents where officers sexually propositioned female motorists. Another agency in upstate New York was investigated by the feds after several officers stopped women, then forced them to strip to their underwear and had them carry their shoes and clothes for blocks. I think some criminal prosecutions arose from that case.

Fact Sheet on Police DV

Wallkill’s investigation into sexual misconduct

Pdf, ask that question of women who’ve had to report things like stalkings, rape and DV.

Your negation blows my mind. I get your drift, though.

The moment she spoke - with the unmistakable accent of someone who has graduated from a high-level college - the way the cops treated her changed 100%. Not because they suddenly liked her better, but because they recognized that this was someone who might be able to talk to reporters and get listened to, or know how to sue the police department.

(my emphasis added)

This is so, so right. I had a very similar exoperience the first time I went with my wife to 26 Federal Plaza in Manhattan to deal with some immigration issues. (We were in the process of applying for her green card at the time.) We were standing in what I came to think of as “the sorting room”…I forget the number…where people had to wait on line to explain to someone why they were there and then that person would tell them which room in the building to go to. There were two lines in the room, one quite long, on which my wife and I were standing, the other, much shorter. My wife asked one of the security guards what the purpose of the other line was and he responded by imporvising a small “rap,” complete with appropriate hand gestures and body movements (he was white), about how that was the “VIP line,” and it was clear he had not intention of actually answering my wife’s question. I put on my best teacher’s voice and asked quite loudly, so that everyone in the room turned to look at us, “Would you please answer my wife’s question?” and once he understood that I was not an immigrant, that I was a native-speaker of English and that I probably could get him into trouble if I wanted to, his whole manner changed. He became solicitous and helpful, though he never apologized.

That was a relatively harmless incident; my wife, and many of the ESL students I have taught over the years, have told me many other stories that do not end with someone like me being there to “save the day,” so to speak. On that same day, when my wife and I got to the window where we explained our purpose for being there, I was astonished to see the differences in the ways the immigration officer spoke me and my wife, even when we were standing right next to each other. To me, she was polite and respectful; to my wife, she was belligerent and dismissive. We did not complain only because we needed to make sure we got done what we needed to get done, and my wife was afraid…probably reasonably so…that, if we did complain, it was quite likely that they would make it more difficult for us to get it done.

I have no doubt that not one of the people we have over the years dealt with in immigration are openly racist (or xenophobic) in the sense that Amp means when he defines one form of racism as the genuinely held view that “Blacks (or Latinos, or Indians, etc…) [are] inferior to whites,” but they are all of them, at least in New York City at 26 Federal Plaza, part of an institution in which it seems like the degradation of foreigners is a normal part of the routine, and they behave accordingly. This is the way institutional racism works, and law enforcement is an institution just like any other.

Indeed. Do you think that might affect your perspective somewhat?

Look, nobody is claiming it’s wise to smart off to a cop. But you’re going a step farther to actually blaming the victim rather than focusing on the police officer’s disproportionate reaction.

Do you think most cops are racist? Note that I’m not putting those words in your mouth, I’m asking your opinion.

Have you stopped believing that cute little puppies are fit only to be put through a wood chipper? Note that I’m not putting those words in your mouth, I’m asking your opinion. ;)

I think that the cops who enjoy abusing their power are, like most bullies, smart enough to pick their victims carefully. Of that subset of the police, some are racist. Some aren’t, but are quite aware that if they slapped around, say, Amp’s dad, they’d be facing an uproar and lawsuits out the wazoo; whereas if they harass prostitutes, or beat up a mouthy black guy who’s probably got a record anyway, nobody will care.

And privileged white people who’ve never heard anything worse than “Please keep your hands on the steering wheel, sir” will shake their heads at whatever the foolish victim could have done to provoke that nice police officer so.

But what about a cop who doesn’t actually think blacks are inferior in any essential way, but reacts in a practical way to power structures? Maybe that cop feels like cracking skulls, and will do so if he has an excuse.

But if he pulls (say) my father over, odds are strong that cop won’t find an excuse - not even if my father acts arrogant or has to be told things several times. Because everything about my father screams “I am someone with serious money and privilege,” and any cop will recognize that within two seconds of talking to my father. And cops won’t shoot or hit someone like that unless there’s a genuinely life-threatening need.

Some impoverished person of color can be pulled over and act exactly the same way as my father, and maybe they’ll find themselves sitting on the curb, and maybe they’ll get hit, and maybe they’ll get arrested. Is the cop racist? I think so, but not in the sense of hating people of color. Just in the sense of acting according to the informal rules which say that whether or not it’s safe for cops to hit someone depends on that person’s race and class.

A friend of mine was arrested in New York years ago with a group of Latina protesters; she was the only one who spoke English fluently, the others all spoke Spanish primarily. The cops treated them all like shit, until finally my friend spoke up and said what the hell are you doing? And why haven’t we gotten a chance to call our lawyers? The moment she spoke - with the unmistakable accent of someone who has graduated from a high-level college - the way the cops treated her changed 100%. Not because they suddenly liked her better, but because they recognized that this was someone who might be able to talk to reporters and get listened to, or know how to sue the police department. It’s about power.

I can’t say that I have any specific insights to what goes on in a police locker room, either first-hand or from someone who works there. The fact that there would be racism in at least some such organizations doesn’t strike me as not credible. Not excusable, yes. Not credible, no. I would be interested to see what the extent of this problem is nationwide, and if there’s differences between urban/suburban/rural LEO’s. If there’s even a credible way to measure it.

I would regretfully say that I’d guess that there’s a likelihood that there’s at least a correlation between the racial balance and any inherent racism in a police department. I say that because I know that in an all-white group, those who are racist feel much more free to express racism. That may be true for any all-one-race group; it’s just that I obviously have no way to tell.

If the culture itself is racist, then many of the cops including men and women of color(sometimes especially so) are operating under that system and act accordingly. Many LE agencies operate under cultures that are racist and sexist. Most of them are predominantly White and male even if the cities and towns they police are not. Often police departments are resistant first to the inclusion of men of color, then women of all races.

Officers come in who may or may not be individually racist, but have to work in a department where culturally, there is racism and sexism. Racist and sexist jokes, comments and slurs are still commonplace, whether in the lockerrooms, in the field or even in a roll call room. Women and men of color may find it difficult to advance in rank, or even integrate into the department’s ranks. They will be treated with severe ostracization and harassment if they complain of racism or sexism in a LE agency. This treatment may or may not be life threatening, based on whether or not it extends to receiving back up officers when they need them.

I had an officer on my site say that officers within the department who were hostile to the racist and sexist comments that he and other officers had written there, were “tattlers” just out to get promoted and should be ashamed of themselves. Of course they should! They broke the rule of the code of silence. Naughty boys and/or girls.

Because you’re white, and so there is no other reason the cop might find you threatening, or have an excuse to abuse you. Is this really so hard to grasp?

It’s easy for me to grasp that kind of behavior by a racist cop. But, that presumes that the cop was racist and would have treated a black person differently. Maybe he just put his gun away because that was the way to meet the responsibility that you spoke of?

Do you think most cops are racist? Note that I’m not putting those words in your mouth, I’m asking your opinion. Although I must say that after going through your blog and seeing both your experiences and some of the stuff that you’ve been sent by people identifying themselves as cops, I can see where you might not exactly have a positive image of at least the cops in your city.

BTW, given our relative sizes, there was definitely a reason for the cop to still consider me a threat; I had about 6 inches in height and about 50 lbs in weight (I estimate) over him. Had I evinced an attitude, I can see where he might have kept that gun out. Had I continued to not comply, I can see where he’d have decided to restrain me.

Grandma was, after all, asking for it.

In my case, I’d unwittingly given the cop a good reason to get his gun out. When I removed that reason, he put his gun away.

Because you’re white, and so there is no other reason the cop might find you threatening, or have an excuse to abuse you. Is this really so hard to grasp?

The issue isn’t about my feelings, or her grandson’s feelings, or anyone’s feelings.

And with yet another invite to bash my head against the wall some more, I hereby decide to instead throw in the towel. >:

Of course not. But I’m not that woman’s grandson. The issue isn’t about my feelings, or her grandson’s feelings, or anyone’s feelings.

No damn way. You have absolutely no intention of putting yourself in that woman’s shoes, or her family’s shoes. Not even for a minute, here in an arena where it costs you all of nothing to do so.

Oh, hell, no. I can see myself in high dudgeon at the Police station or hospital, screaming at the cops, hiring a lawyer, talking to the papers. But that has no bearing on whether or not the cop followed the law or used excessive force. Let’s not confuse the facts by invoking emotion.

Reminds me of when Dukakis (who I voted for as Governor) was running for President and someone asked him some question regarding rape laws and what his reaction would be if his wife had been raped. He fumbled along with the legal reasoning. He was excoriated, and rightfully so. What he should have said is “Why, I’d want to kill the bastard. But the law is here for justice, not personal retribution.” What I would feel and what the right way to apply the law is are two different things.

I can definitely see myself saying, “Shit, Gramma, next time show the cop your license, will ya? What were you thinking?”

Instead you opt to rain down sympathy and benevolence on the cop and give no credence at all to folks with other skin colors and their experience of life in this country.

Where did I do these two things?

Dang. Lucky no one got wounded or killed, including you. Although I’d offer that’s it’s one thing to be around a cop waving his gun around, and another to have a cop point his gun quite steadily and purposefully at you, which was my experience.

However, there is still responsibilities they are obligated to.

Agreed. In my case, I’d unwittingly given the cop a good reason to get his gun out. When I removed that reason, he put his gun away. Having the right to use deadly force to protect the public carries the responsibility to use that power in a specific and controlled fashion. It is human to make a mistake under such circumstances, but that can’t excuse it.

That said, being White, I’m guessing that’s where the lesson plan [ended]. Did your father ever tell you how to respond if the officer asked what I call the P&P question(are you on probation or parole?) or the keeping the hands on the wheel at all times.

Yes to the latter, no to the former. But then, since the answer would be “No”, he probably figured he didn’t need to. I should clarify one thing; I look about as white as it gets, but it turns out I do have some African ancestry. Not that anyone looking at me would think so.

Or how to deal with a man with a gun who is afraid or in some cases, even terrified of you even if you are harmless?

Nope.

Does your father sit up at night and wait until you get home(most parents do but White parents don’t worry about their sons especially the tall and muscular ones getting pulled over by cops).

Either Mom or Dad were usually awake when I came home. Either my wife or I were awake when my son or daughter got home. Hell, they’re both out of their teen years and I still worry about such things. And I do worry about my tall, muscular son getting pulled over. He’s gotten into mischief a couple of times; underage drinking (not while driving) and trespassing (but no vandalism or B&E), and I was quite worried for a while that another instance might start getting him on the radar of the local constabulary. Fortunately, a couple of court appearances finally convinced him that just because a friend proposes something stupid doesn’t mean you should go along with it.

As someone who is also very white I can tell Ron he is wrong.

About what?

I’ve gotten tickets while driving with white passengers, and while driving with black passengers. And I can tell you that the second has a whole different feel.

Was this statement offered to rebut a presumed opinion of mine? If so, what would that have been?

I’m also curious as to whether or not the race of the LEO makes a difference in the instance above, as well as the other ones you later described?