Male Privilege Checklist: Harassment, Car Sales, Housecleaning, and Weight
| May 30th, 2006“Chuckdarwin,” while criticizing the Male Privilege Checklist, wrote:
5. The odds of my encountering sexual harassment on the job are so low as to be negligible.
Anecdotal. Unprovable. As a manager, I have fired people for sexually harassing men at work.
I looked into this after reading Chuck’s post, and I think he has a point. #5 is too strongly worded; in the US, according to Federal EEOC statistics, the proportion of sexual harassment charges filed by women has dropped from about 90% to about 85% over the last decade. Therefore, I’ve rewritten #5 to say “I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are.”
27. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.
Salesmen just want your money, no matter who you are. While it may still happen in rare cases, this is just neurotic tinfoil hattery and an unimportant concern in the grand scheme of women’s issues.
That this happens - and doesn’t appear to be a matter of “rare cases” - has been documented by sending male and female negotiators, trained to use identical negotiating techniques, to car lots to negotiate for cars. The initial offers made to men are simply better. (This doesn’t mean that women will always pay more, just that they’ll have to negotiate harder to reach the same price.) (References at bottom of post).
Admittedly, the academic research I’ve read only applies to the US. However, a November 2005 story in The Guardian reported that a non-academic British study had found similar results.
What Car? magazine sent men and women into 45 dealerships across England, and used hidden cameras and microphones to track their progress.
The team found the women were quoted up to £1,800 more to buy a BMW 320i, Ford Focus 1.6, Nissan X-Trail 2.2 dCi, Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 and Volkswagen Beetle Cabriolet 1.6. On average they were asked to pay a premium of £534. [That’s $1,005 U.S. -Amp]
Less than half the staff were happy to cut prices for female customers, compared with more than four-fifths for men.
More women thought their inquiry had not been taken seriously by the dealer, and complained that finance packages had not been explained. Even the presence of a man appeared to cut prices, with couples offered a better deal even if the woman took the lead.
In general, the theory that the free market prevents market-based discrimination from happening - “Salesmen just want your money, no matter who you are,” as Chuck puts it - has not been supported by the experiences of discriminated-against groups, or by empirical testing.
37. If I have a wife or girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.
This one is just plain old insulting.
#37 is well-supported by tons of research, from a large number of countries (I’ve included a handful of citations at the bottom of this post). Women do more household chores, and in particular are more likely to scrub the toilet, wash dishes, change the diapers, etc - tasks that must be repeated again and again, day after day.
I don’t see why any man should find this insulting. Some men do as much or more housework than the women they live with (I live with such a man), but statistically these men are a minority; why be insulted because I point this fact out?
41. I am not expected to spend my entire life 20-40 pounds underweight.
Come on, now. This is all based on ‘target weight’, which is in no way an exact science (and that’s as nice as I can be about the ’subject’). No one EXPECTS any woman to be 40 pounds underweight. Some famous models and actresses may try this, but most people actually say it’s a BAD thing (reading the tabloids whilst in line to purchase groceries).
41. Probably I could have phrased this better - in particular, including a particular poundage was a mistake. So point well taken. I’ll have to reword this item.
But I feel that Chuck is focusing on the trees and ignoring the forest. Is there any serious doubt that women as a group face much more pressure than men to be thin?
(This is one of a number of posts responding to Chuck’s critique. You can use the category archive to see all posts related to the Male Privilege Checklist.)
References
Ayres, Ian, “Fair Driving: Gender and Race Discrimination in Retail Car Negotiations,” Harvard Law Review, volume 104 (4), February 1991, pages 817-872.
Ayres, Ian and Siegelman, Peter. “Race and Gender Discrimination in Bargaining for a New
Car.” American Economic Review, June 1995, 85(3), pp. 304″“21.
Batalova J.A.1, Cohen P.N., Premarital Cohabitation and Housework: Couples in Cross-National Perspective, Journal of Marriage and Family, Volume 64, Number 3, August 2002, pp. 743-755.
Harless D.W., Hoffer G.E., Do Women Pay More for New Vehicles? Evidence from Transaction Price Data, The American Economic Review, Volume 92, Number 1, 1 March 2002, pp. 270-279.
Joni Hersch, Leslie S. Stratton, Housework and Wages, The Journal of Human Resources, Vol. 37, No. 1. (Winter, 2002), pp. 217-229.
Lee, Yun-Suk & Waite, Linda J. (2005), Husbands’ and wives’ time spent on housework: A comparison of measures. Journal of Marriage and Family 67 (2), 328-336.
Fiona Scott Morton, Florian Zettelmeyer, Jorge Silva-Risso, Consumer Information and Discrimination: Does the Internet Affect the Pricing of New Cars to Women and Minorities?, Quantitative Marketing and Economics, Volume 1, Issue 1, Mar 2003, Pages 65 - 92
Scott J. South, Glenna Spitze, Housework in Marital and Nonmarital Households, American Sociological Review, Vol. 59, No. 3. (Jun., 1994), pp. 327-347.
May 30th, 2006 at 4:01 pm
While you’re looking up references for nitpicks missing the forest for the trees… What’s your evidence for 28? I was under the impression the for say shortness in males the affects on dating options and income are very strong. I’d have imagined that other measures of unattractiveness in men would also have had large affects. Anyway, from experience you tend to be more knowledgeable about this sort of thing than I, so I look forward to any evidence on the matter that you might have.
And again, this question has no bearing on the general importance or accuracy of the list. Just curiousity on this one point.
This comment was written by Noah Snyder.Report this comment to the moderators
May 30th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
#37 doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with discrimination or expectations. Most women are simply cleaner than men, and want things to be cleaner than men do.
I could happily go for years without caring how clean the inside of the toilet bowl is — but I’ve never had a girlfriend who would let it go more than a month or two without scrubbing. Am I opressing them by not giving a damn what the inside of a toilet looks like? I don’t ask them to do it, and if they didn’t do it, I’d never even notice. But they do, and according to your logic it’s because of gender inequality? That just doesn’t pass the common sense test.
This comment was written by Nathaniel.Report this comment to the moderators
May 30th, 2006 at 4:59 pm
Nathaniel, do you think you’d never notice if years went by and neither of you ever washed a dish or washed clothes?
Anecdotally (so take it for what it’s worth - but your post was anecdotal too, after all), I’ve known multiple men who could go for years without ever washing a toilet or cleaning their stovetop - but only because they’d complain to their female partner if things get too dirty.
This comment was written by Ampersand.Report this comment to the moderators
May 30th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
And Natheniel, WHY do you think women care about the inside of a toilet? Do you think there’s a toilet-cleaning gene that just magically appears in women? Or do you think perhaps there is pressure for women to keep an organized house?
This comment was written by Antigone.Report this comment to the moderators
May 30th, 2006 at 5:41 pm
Antigone - it’s entirely possible that women have to one degree or another been selected during evolution for better hygiene than men.
Male reproductive organs are not particularly susceptible to functional damage except in the most extreme cases of poor hygiene. Perfectly healthy women, unfortunately, deal with yeast infections, vaginitis, etc on a regular basis, and any one of those dozens of common bacteria can cause sterility. For women, cleaning the genitals and underclothes on a regular basis is about more than just smelling nice.
Ampersand — division of labor has as much to do with personal priorities as any societal pressure. Most guys I have known are perfectly happy to wear dirty clothes or use dishes 2 or 3 times before cleaning them thoroughly. We all did it just fine for ourselves when we were single, contrary to the stereotypes of incompetent men in the home. When we join households with a woman, if she finds we aren’t doing it frequently enough or has higher standards for what she’d like, it only makes sense for her to do it to her own standards.
This comment was written by Nathaniel.Report this comment to the moderators
May 30th, 2006 at 6:25 pm
Hahaha. Okay, now I’ve heard it all. Why yes, Virginia, there -is- a toilet cleaning gene.
Thank you Nathaniel, for such a wonderful laugh.
This comment was written by Kim (basement variety!).Report this comment to the moderators
May 30th, 2006 at 7:21 pm
Frequency and severity of diseases to male and female genitalia, relation to overall health, percentage of each resulting in sterility, and tracing of each to hygiene–got stats?? How can you prove the hygiene part?
This comment was written by Angiportus.Might there not be cultural/mythical factors in the way that deodorant sprays and so on for guys are just sort of all-purpose, but women are told that they need special sprays for a part that only they have? It sounds like the modern version of the old taboos. You’d think the deodorant companies would decide they could make twice as much money if they insulted each sex equally, but no, when it comes ot private parts, they gotta pick on women.
One of these days I’m gonna come up with a unisex genital deodorant. When I do, I’ll call it The Pit And The Pendulum.
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May 30th, 2006 at 7:29 pm
When we join households with a woman, if she finds we aren’t doing it frequently enough or has higher standards for what she’d like, it only makes sense for her to do it to her own standards.
Case in point: A few years ago, I had a girlfriend who lived out-of-state. Before she came to visit me for the first time, I gave my apartment what I thought was a thorough cleaning. I was quite proud of the results, but upon her arrival she immediately pronounced it inadequate and insisted, to my mortification, on doing the job herself.
This comment was written by Brandon Berg.Report this comment to the moderators
May 30th, 2006 at 7:33 pm
I have known both men and women who are scrupulous about their personal appearance but who are total slobs at home. I have known men and women who are slovenly, just as I have known those who are neat freaks. Overall, it seems women are socialized more to see the dirt. Further, women are socialized to clean it up because no one else is going to do it. Men are just as capable of sweeping the floor or picking up cat barf as women, but many of them are socialized that it’s not their responsibility. True story: Years ago, I was visiting my now-ex’s parents’ house and his cat barfed in his room after Mom had gone to bed. This able-bodied young man (who professed to be a feminist) did not ask me (his female guest), “Can you tell me how to clean this up?” but “Could you clean it for me?”
This comment was written by Denise.Report this comment to the moderators
May 30th, 2006 at 7:56 pm
My wife (who is at least as conservative as I am) thinks it’s all socialization. She notes (accurately) that there are a lot of men who are trained/spoiled by their mothers and later their wives to never pick up after themselves. I recognize the existence of the socialization, but…
I have a spoon in my office. I use it to eat canned fruit, or ice cream, or sometimes cereal. It’s too much bother to walk up and down the stairs for a lousy spoon, so I use the same one over and over again. I just wipe it on my shirt to clean it off before each use. I think the spoon was last washed in a dishwasher or sink, oh, six months ago. In our discussion of this question, I mentioned the spoon and said that I didn’t think that many women would do that, and I certainly hadn’t been socialized into not caring about clean cutlery. She said “I think I took that spoon back to the kitchen - it was on the floor.”
My honest response: “What?!? The one on the floor was my backup spoon!”
I gotta think that some of this is in the bone.
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May 30th, 2006 at 9:03 pm
Angiportus — excellent questions, all. I certainly don’t have stats in front of me and don’t profess to, I’m just going off of what my ob/gyn friends have shared over the years. I’m just suggesting that there are potentially more fundamental factors that could be coming into play on that specific topic, so Ampersand saying correlation=causation is unlikely to convince anyone who isn’t already convinced.
At a basic level, just ask yourself how often young, healthy men have to go to the doctor to make sure their genitals are in good health? I can’t recall any of the hundreds of doctors I’ve worked with suggesting that it was necessary until the age of 40 or 50 when prostate and testicular cancers become more common.
Women, on the other hand, have to do many little preventative tasks on a regular basis, from peeing after sex to changing and cleaning underclothes even more frequently during menstruation. No, it’s not fair that guys can just roll over and go to sleep covered in all sorts of foreign fluids and remain perfectly healthy, or that we can wear the same underwear for 30 days without washing them (though you might get some nasty dermatitis, which wouldn’t be comfortable on the penis but isn’t going to make you sterile).
Denise — sorry about the guy, sounds like a jerk. I should think if he grew up around cats, cleaning up their hairballs would be an unconscious activity by adulthood!
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May 30th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
Bunk, bunk and more bunk. The bottom line is that cleaning has been tied up with personal worth far more with women, than it has with men. People are inclined to give men a pass on cleaning ‘oh, boys will be boys’ ‘oh he’s such a guy when it comes to cleaning’, whereas women are far more likely to hear scathing judgements upon her as a person if she partakes in the same habits. That is male priviledge, not fucking rocket science.
Personal hygiene is a completely other subject.
This comment was written by Kim (basement variety!).Report this comment to the moderators
May 30th, 2006 at 9:36 pm
Kim -
Surely. I accept the existence of the social pressure/character formation, and with the differential in judgement that is implied.
That doesn’t make it inconceivable that there is an inborn component as well. In fact, it’s immaterial to that question.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
May 30th, 2006 at 11:20 pm
I’m female and not much for house cleaning. I can relate to Robert’s spoon, although mine was a coffee cup. But I feel weird about not caring; I feel like I’m lacking some urge I am supposed to have. I think that’s the result of socialization that women and girls receive. The men who commented here appear not to have received this socialization insofar as they seem to feel it’s perfectly natural for them not to care about cleaning.
I might argue therefore that it’s a male privilege not to be constantly assaulted by messages about how it’s your responsibility to keep your environment clean and tidy.
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May 30th, 2006 at 11:40 pm
The men who commented here appear not to have received this socialization insofar as they seem to feel it’s perfectly natural for them not to care about cleaning.
See, here’s the thing. We got the socialization. “Pick that up. This isn’t a pigsty. When you clean something, you wash it.” And on and on and on and on. And the socialization basically worked; I wash my clothes. I clean off the toilet every once in a while. When I take my plate to the sink, I scrape it and rinse it and put it in the dishwasher. I empty the dishwasher when it’s my turn. If a dog or a baby shits on the floor, I clean it up.
But I don’t dust every individual slat of the Venetian blinds. I don’t change the sheets every two days. I’ll make a bed, but I don’t put it in hospital corners and arrange five layers of freaking shams and comforters and dingelhoppers and Buddha alone knows what else. I wipe the crud off the toilets, but I don’t go down on all fours with a toothbrush and play Apocalypse Now with individual microbes. If my baby blows a booger on the furniture, I pick it up with a tissue and throw it out, I don’t call in the EPA Hazmat team for a detox.
In short, I’m decently clean (thanks entirely to socialization - my natural inclination is Porcinus Maximus), but I’m not freaking nuts.
When guys talk about women wanting things cleaner than men, that’s what we’re talking about. The Nut Zone. The “let’s spend 30 hours a week on housework” zone. The zone where Martha Stewart isn’t held in an ironic light.
And it seems to be a largely female preserve, and it seems to be pretty much a voluntary entrance kind of deal. There’s lots of social pressure to wash your kids and not have needles in the front yard. There’s not that much pressure to have perfectly aligned toast points at your daily garden soiree.
Every woman I have ever known or been involved with, a not inconsiderable population (albeit, n
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 12:59 am
I, for one, tend to be quite messy but no matter how much anecdotal evidence we bring out, it cannot be questioned that women are much more socialised to be neat and cleanly. I know I get judged on my neatness and always feel obligated to clean up if others will see or use an area.
As for women’s genital problems, the risk factors for those are: having intercourse without being sufficiently lubricated and/or turned on, wearing tightfitting underwear in artificial materials, shaving, and washing too regularly or using too much soap. So being obsessed with hygiene is actually a disadvantage for women - not the opposite.
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May 31st, 2006 at 1:17 am
Here’s the thing that I think often flies under the radar of most people when considering ingrained sexism when it comes to housekeeping and cleaning. My family is a great example of the sexist cleaning dynamic. My mother and father both work full-time, but my mother has always accepted that cleaning is her responsibility. My father does some cleaning duties, but they really don’t stack up to the day to day housekeeping that my mother does.
In so much as the whole home stuff is my mothers domain (or yolk), she has at times inadvertantly tried to pass that on to me. We would have family dinners and my mother would then expect me to help clean up afterwards as my father, brother and she assumed husband would go into the other room have coffee and chat, or watch tv. Upon her asking, I would immediatly respond with ‘Sure, Matt and I would be happy to help’. She would literally get upset and insist I was trying to make a statement, to which I’d respond, well to an extent I am. It’s taken several years for her to accept that after dinner help is a team dynamic with Matt and I, and we are committed to continuing this so our daughters will not make similar distinctions. I have to say one of the funniest attempts my mother made at trying to circumvent my actions was by saying that this time was a time for female bonding - I responded, well why don’t they clean and we can go into the other room and have coffee and chat. When I’ve really tried to dig in and ask her why she does this, she has acknowledged that she sees it as her job. Granted my dad is pretty good about doing things when asked, but that it needs to be asked is where I always end up getting irritated with them.
So let me say it one more time - the vagina does not endow women with super powers of housekeeping.
This comment was written by Kim (basement variety!).Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 1:51 am
Ahh. Cleaning. It’s socialization. (Let’s see if I can do this without stepping into any gender boots.) A good number of my female friends are socialization-resisters, the kind of people who assume role mores don’t apply to them. This correlates both with male role traits (desire to be the breadwinner, the driver, etc.) and with how much of a “bachelor” they are in their housekeeping. I know likewise resistant males.
Due to my brain chemistry (personal, not gender-related) I get badly frustrated by repetition. Therefore, if I think I can get away with not cleaning something, I’ll fob it off on someone who has less of a passionate hatred for the task than I do, and do some kind of nice thing for them later. The recipient of this fobbing-off is not usually female. When I lived by myself, it was usually “me some hours later.”, but I was very recognizably living in a bachelor pad.
Regarding sales, I’d say, as a long-time salesperson, that “Salesmen just want your money, no matter who you are” is truer than you think — but it’s more likely to lead to discrimination than prevent it. Demographic-izing is a sad reality of the business. There are these “men are” and “women are” statements that run around in people’s heads, and one of them is “Women are interested in luxury shopping, and less frugal than men.” It’s a perception that probably swings in from the fashion industry and advertising.
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May 31st, 2006 at 2:28 am
05/31 SistersTalk Interviews Ellis, National Independent Acoustic Artist 05/31 Pedophiles Campaign to Lower Legal Age of Consent 05/31 Help Out My Neighbors 05/30 The Right To Insult 05/30Male Privilege Checklist: Harassment, Car Sales, Housecleaning, and Weight
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May 31st, 2006 at 4:29 am
sexual harassment on the job are so low as to be negligible. Anecdotal. Unprovable. As a manager, I have fired people for sexually harassing men at work. I looked into this after reading Chuck’s post, and I think he has a point. #5 is […]Continue reading at Alas, a blog … posted 6:11 pm at Alas, a blog
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May 31st, 2006 at 4:59 am
in 1999, I bought a vw diesel. Because the 1998 diesels had sold so poorly (not because they weren’t great cars) and because California’s import restrictions on cars without 3-stage catalytic converters, there were no 1999 vw diesels available in my area. However, there were five 1998s within 50 miles, still sitting unsold.
Everything about dealing with the salesman was a total hassle. But when it came time to talk about the price, he quoted me $400 less than the sticker price for 1999. For a car that was a year old and had significantly fewer features and had even been advertised for less.
I blinked at him. “Is this a joke?” Why was he making fun of me? Was this funny in some way I was missing?
I wish that I had just left at that point, but alas I did not. Although, given that sales guys work on commission and there were so few of this model of car, if I had simply walked out, I could have easily been blacklisted such that I would have to deal with that guy or deal with nobody.
I got my car, but I know paid too much for it. I’d bet money that his negotiation style with men was completely different.
I am never buying a new car again. Way too much hassle.
This comment was written by Les.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 9:01 am
Since we’re trading anecdotal stories –
My mom’s a neat freak. Saturday is her cleaning day and she takes it seriously. Toilets get scrubbed, sheets get washed, floors get mopped, rugs get vaccuumed, etc etc etc. Seeing a lone dirty glass or plate sitting after use anywhere other than the dishwasher drives her mad, no matter how recently said dirty food receptacle had been emptied. When my brother and I were growing up, her incessant nagging to bring the plates to the kitchen, to pick up the dirty towels, to wash the dishes immediately after using them, etc etc etc drove *us* mad.
Growing up, my dad certainly contributed to the household chores, although I will admit that my mom usually took care of the toilet scrubbing. But my dad regularly cooked dinner and washed up afterwards, vaccuumed the rugs, etc etc. He also took care of all the stuff like mucking out the eaves, taking the garbage to the curb, household repairs, stuff like that.
Neither my brother nor I are particularly prone to tidiness, which meant that we were nagged a lot. I’m one of those people mentioned above who is obsessive about the cleanliness of her person and likes always to look “put together” in social situations. I can’t stand not showering or washing my hair for more than 2 days, which is why camping and I have never gotten on particularly well. But if you were to visit my home unannounced on a typical day, you’d more than likely find dirty dishes on my counter or in my sink, clothes on my bedroom floor, grooming products strewn across my bathroom counter and a less-than-pristinely-scrubbed toilet.
When I first moved out of my mom’s house, I loved never having anyone harass me about the cleanliness level of my residence. Sometimes I would seriously use every single plate, glass and piece of cutlery until finally, 3 weeks later, I was forced to wash dishes simply to have something to eat off of and because I could literally no longer see the top of my counter or move anything without a mountain of dirty dishes crashing down on my head. I would clean up if I knew someone was coming over, but that usually had more to do with my concern over how they would perceive me when they saw what a slob I truly was or my concern over someone else being uncomfortable in my mess than any real desire on my part to be clean. Of course, when things began to reach critical mass, I’d go on an all-day cleaning spree. Rinse, repeat. I could go for months without cleaning the bathroom.
When my brother and I bought a townhouse and took up housekeeping together, it was amazing how much my level of tolerance for general slobbery decreased. When you have two slobs making a mess, things reach critical mass far more quickly. 90% of all the arguments between my brother and I in the first year we lived together have been about division of labour in household chores. Mostly because I get tired of cleaning up after him if I want the house to stay even semi-decent. I can’t force him to clean up after himself, so a lot of times it’s either leave it alone and suffer or do it myself. It’s frustrating to do a pile of dishes, go to my boyfriend’s house for the weekend and then return to a pile of dirty dishes, none of which I have even used, that I have to wash if I would like to cook myself dinner.
Amp’s point in the list about how women end up doing the more repetitive, mind-numbing tasks disproprotionately often really hit home for me, because when my brother and I get into it over these issues, his defense is usually that he contributes in other ways like taking out the garbage or taking the empty bottles from the temporary storage cupboard into the basement — things that need to get done far less often. My argument is that walking a bag of trash that I have gathered up or scraped from plates into the bag and then tied up and left by the door out to the dumpster once every couple days or moving the bottles from the cupboard to the basement once every three months or dusting the coffee table once a week is hardly equivalent to taking care of washing the dishes day in and day out, week in and week out. Often times, he’s said “if you want me to do something all you have to do is ask.” The thing is that he’s a grown man and it’s not my job to nag him into taking care of his share. Though I will say that after a few brutal screaming fights, things have evened out more now.
I have a male cousin who washed the drapes in his bedroom every two weeks of his own volition when he was 15 years old, vaccuumed daily and dusted daily. He’s a neat freak type and his parents never ever had to ask him to clean up. My boyfriend is far tidier than I am and if he and I ever move in together I’m going to have to change my slovenly ways even more so than I already have just so we can both be comfortable in our mutual environment.
If there is some kind of evolutionary biological imperative that provides women with an innate desire to clean up, I’m obviously missing it. If there is some kind of evolutionary biological imperative that prompts men sit on their ass and live blissfully in a dirty house unless there is a woman around who wants it clean, my cousin and my boyfriend are obviously missing it. I’m really tired of this argument that social or cultural norms which place unfair burden on women should not be analyzed or challenged and should be excused because “it’s evolution.” What a load of crap. Even if it *is* (which I, like Kim, think is laughable), there are plenty of ways that humans in civilized society circumvent their supposed evolutionary traits for a greater social or moral good. Proclaiming that women are just hardwired to want to clean more and we should therefore shut up, scrub and accept our genetic lot is beyond ridiculous.
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May 31st, 2006 at 9:16 am
The cleaning thing came up just a few months ago; discussions of it were on Pandagon, Feministe, and other places. A few threads included Internalized sexism and invisibility of privillege and the vacuum myth. The Hirschman article also prompted a post from Bitch PhD about the drive required for the woman to get an even split on chores.
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May 31st, 2006 at 9:30 am
I wish you had walked out too, because you just reinforced in him that his behavior was reasonable. As long as women buy cars for too much money, there is no reason for salesmen not to give women higher starting prices in the negotiation. If their experience tells them that men are more willing to haggle, why not do this? Saying “it’s not fair” doesn’t help their bottom line any.
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May 31st, 2006 at 9:38 am
I have to say, that, as a man, I find this sort of behavior annoying. You are annoyed at your mother for assuming that you would help, but then you assume that your husband will help. Give him a chance to volunteer. Even if he is expected to volunteer, it’s nice to have a choice.
Also, I’ve observed that with older folks like mothers, grandmothers, etc…sometimes they are not comfortable if the roles are challenged. My wife’s family is like that. They don’t _want_ any men in the kitchen. If men go in to help with dishes, it causes conversations to stop and so on. It’s different than my family, but there’s something to be said for respecting these sorts of things.
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May 31st, 2006 at 9:41 am
I can’t clean. (I’m a woman) The thing that gets me about cleaning is that nothing ever seems to get done. You do an hour of housework one day, and the next day, you have to do another hour of housework. And it never ends. Add a load of higher priority tasks on top of that, and you get a pigsty. My theory for other people is that they internalize the social approval they got for cleaniing and that reinforces them, but my parents are neat freaks, so nothing was ever clean enough- they mop the ceiling(ok, my mom does, but my dad complains about it) and put plates on tables that no one ever uses. The fact that I wash dishes every 18 hours or so can’t compare.
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May 31st, 2006 at 10:08 am
Ampersand:
In general, the theory that the free market prevents market-based discrimination from happening - “Salesmen just want your money, no matter who you are,” as Chuck puts it - has not been supported by the experiences of discriminated-against groups, or by empirical testing.
The theory works just fine. The problem is that if you’re not prepared to take your money elsewhere, you’re basically dealing with a monopolist. Salesmen will try to charge you as much as they think they can get away with. If men are, in general, significantly better at bargaining than women, or if they’re more likely to walk away if quoted an excessively high price, then the optimal first offer is higher for women than for men.
This is just speculation, but it seems like a woman should be able to overcome the stereotype of women as bad bargainers by providing additional information, e.g., by responding to an insulting offer with “I’ll give you one more chance to quote me a serious price, and then I’m leaving,” or just leaving without giving him a second chance and then mentioning this to the salesman at the next place. Of course, if you don’t know what you should expect to pay, this is a bit harder.
Les:
This comment was written by Brandon Berg.Are you sure that the fact that you were trying to buy a hard-to-find vehicle wasn’t a at least as important a factor in the price you were quoted as the fact that you were a woman? You say yourself that you were afraid to leave because you didn’t have many options—maybe he knew that, too.
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May 31st, 2006 at 10:37 am
plunky said:
It sounded to me like Kim and her husband were in agreement about what they wanted to do. As that is the case, it seems like there’s a big difference.
On the one hand, her mother was making an assumption based on sexist ideas about division of labour which resulted in people being divided along gender lines into a male group doing leisure activities and a female group doing housework EVERY TIME they get together for dinner.
On the other hand, Kim was making an assumption that, based on her husband’s voluntary agreement that this was an important example to set in raising feminist children, he would be helping with dishes.
The idea that “it sure would be nice to be allowed to volunteer” assumes that somehow, getting the dishes done is a voluntary and optional activity for him, but not necessarily for her. Clearly it’s a mandatory activity for somebody, unless they constantly eat off of disposable dishes.
Are you saying it’s not fair to assume her husband would help? Why?
This comment was written by Rainbowk.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 10:48 am
Oh well, if we’re going to speak anecdotally, my family is the precise opposite of the norm. My mother is a slob. My father is a neat freak. Anything that was more than desultory cleaning was done by my father. My brother is much neater than I am and was at a relatively young age.
Now that I’m an adult, I pay a man to clean my apartment every week so as to avoid doing the major tasks, as I hate them. Really, all of them. He does the laundry, the vacuuming, the mopping, and even grocery shopping and picking up/dropping off my dry cleaning. I do like to live in a clean apartment, but there is no nut zone in mine. Things are not spotless and papers are not terribly organized. Even if I were so inclined, which I am absolutely not, I work full-time and really don’t want to spend my free time doing massive amounts of housework.
In my limited experience, people who spend massive amounts of time house-cleaning are generally trying to keep their surroundings organized to make up for what they feel is a lack of control in the rest of their lives. There’s nothing scientific about that and it may well not apply beyond the boundaries of my family. However, when I think of all the neat freaks in my family (including my extended family), that dynamic certainly applies. It’s not genetic.
This comment was written by Lesley.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 11:03 am
And Natheniel, WHY do you think women care about the inside of a toilet? Do you think there’s a toilet-cleaning gene that just magically appears in women? Or do you think perhaps there is pressure for women to keep an organized house?
Amusingly, the husband is the one who complains about the hard water stains (we get those pink deposits due to hard water) in the toilet bowl.
Of course, he complains to me, and then I point out there’s a bottle of bleach under the sink and he knows what to do with it.
(dumping about half a cup of bleach into a bowl with hard water stains and shutting the lid for about 30 minutes will eliminate those stains)
This comment was written by hp.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 11:04 am
No, what I said doesn’t assume that dishes are voluntary for him, and not for her.
I am merely saying that I’ve run into this firm pushing way of getting people to do things, and it annoys me. Kim’s post makes it clear that she doesn’t like it either (when her mother assumes that Kim will help clean up and the men will go away). If she and her husband have an agreement, she can assume that he will volunteer. I don’t know about you, but I don’t like it when people tell me to do something that I’m already going to do. Thanks, but I’ll decide myself.
I would never dream of talking to my wife in a similar manner.
This comment was written by plunky.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 11:14 am
Weird, weird thread.
Really weird.
This comment was written by Q Grrl.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 11:14 am
I think the cleaning thing is largely socialization. Anecdotal evidence: when my husband (at that time, my boyfriend) was in graduate school, he and 5 of his fellow graduate students rented a house together. Every one of these men had a girlfriend, but the space was too small and cramped for any of the girlfriends to become a permanent resident, although we were all frequent visitors. There were also two cats, who nominally belonged to one of my husband’s housemates. You would think that the women would have done all the cleaning, or that the house was a total pigsty, but not so. Occasionally, one of the women would do some housework (usually the grocery shopping, and as there was a receipt system for reimbursement, so we usually got some money back), but over time each of the men adopted a specific part of the housework as his thing to take care of, and everybody picked up after themselves (including in the kitchen). My husband and one other of the men were the ones who usually cleaned the bathrooms, and to this day, my husband generally does a much better job of it than I do, as well as being somewhat neater than I am. I’m not a total slob, but I am a “piler,” so unless I have a significant block of time or energy, I tend to have little piles all over the place, although I usually know exactly where everything is. He likes having everything picked up and put away, except for his socks, for some reason.
This comment was written by Lee.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 11:42 am
I’m another one of those women who is not particularly neat. My mother isn’t either, although my dad does a lot of “the floor is dirty” and expecting my mom to hop right to it and clean it up. My boyfriend is a neat freak compared to me, largly due to his mother. His parent’s house is immaculate, and at family gatherings it is always the women who do everything. Cook, set the table, serve, sit down last, first ones up to clear the table for the next course. But my boyfriend is one of 3 brothers and he is the only one that helps the women clean up or do the dishes. Is it because she spoils the other two by doing everything for them? Or is it because he’s 24 and the other two are still teenagers?
So is this all gender orientated, social, or a matter of maturity? It’s a little bit of all of that. This is a nature vs. nurture argument in some ways, and the two can’t be seperated. Some of it we teach, some of it is innate. For women however, this particular issue is definitely taught and emphasized more than it is for men. As a woman, I get some pretty weird looks and am sometimes excluded from conversations because, for example, I don’t think the sheets will get dirty if I don’t make my bed every morning. But that could depend on the women you are talking to. Is cleaning something men discuss? Do they talk about the best way to get out stains?
This comment was written by Nicole.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 11:47 am
Do they talk about the best way to get out stains?
Only Democratic members of the executive branch.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 1:29 pm
I should probably have clarified that somewhat, but since I didn’t I will now. Matt is completely in agreement with me about taking on these sorts of issues as a team in a highly visible manner to combat the very quiet message that is being sent. In saying ‘Matt and I would be happy to help’, we are affirming to our daughters that Matt isn’t just helping out Kim who has a responsiblity, but instead Matt and Kim both helping as a responsibility of people partaking in the dinner, regardless of gender.
As for older women not wanting men in the kitchen, well, that’s the point my mother has made. That conversations are had, and it’s a time of female bonding. Again, I reiterate, bullshit and not acceptible. Playing along with an antiquated sexist dynamic for the comfort of my older female relatives is not worth the message sent to my daughters.
This comment was written by Kim (basement variety!).Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 1:49 pm
The message you’d rather send to your daughters is that you know better than all your older relatives?
This comment was written by plunky.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 1:58 pm
The message you’d rather send to your daughters is that you know better than all your older relatives?
And, if you see people making a transaction that you wouldn’t make, be sure to break that up. Making statements is more important than letting other adults live their own lives.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 2:34 pm
That “clean dishes/cutlery” socialization seems to have been reversed in my family. Back when we washed dishes by hand, I would regularly find food residue on dishes my wife had washed (I was drying them, not checking up on her). When I commented, she said that in her family it was the job of the person who was drying the dishes to wipe that off. In my family, the person drying the dishes would hand back any dish with food still on it to the washer to re-clean it. I should note that I had regular practice at this; I had two older brothers and no sisters, and we all shared duty.
Now that we have a dishwasher, she never looks at the condition of the dishes; she just pulls them out and puts them away when she does it. That means that I regularly find dishes in drawers and cabinets with food residue baked on them (especially the cutlery). When I do the dishes, I rinse off everything before it goes in the dishwasher, or at least soak it to loosen stuff like spaghetti pots, etc. Part of that could be the fact that I’m a biology major and spent a fair amount of time in the lab. I’ve cleaned my fair share of biology and chemistry glassware, and it’s second nature to look at a glass and look for the smallest spot.
Mom taught us how to wash dishes, clothes, floors and toilets. I was taught how to use a sewing machine and how to repair a seam by hand (I still sew all the patches on my Scout uniforms, and I have 5 uniform sets). I also learned to cook. And we all got plenty of opportunity to exercise these skills. Mom said, “I don’t want my boys to have to depend on a woman to take care of themselves.”
God bless my late mother-in-law; she was a wonderful woman, but no domestic engineer. I remember when I would be over at their house when we were dating and my father-in-law would complain that his underwear always had holes in it. I found out why the first time I was in the basement and saw my wife load the underwear in the washing machine. She threw in the detergent, and then, just like her mother had shown her, poured straight bleach in on top of the clothes and start the machine filling with water.
No, I’d have to say that if there is such a socialization, it’s definitely not universal.
This comment was written by RonF.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 2:56 pm
Kim, I think you and Matt’s “statement” is a good idea. It’s quite true that many women, and not just older ones, have this expectation. That expectation also applies before the meal, when the cooking is being done. Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc., men are chased out of the kitchen, regardless of any skills they may have.
The exception, of course, is when cooking is done over an open flame or charcoal. Barbecue/grilling seems to be a male domain. Not that I have any objection to standing outside drinking whiskey and beer while cooking up a bunch of meat and bullshitting with the guys, but there are definitely some assumptions being made.
This socialization, and recently societial changes, have been causing me some problems in the BSA. Female leaders are becoming more and more common in Scouting. What I find during and after meal times are two issues:
1) The boys have no cooking or cleaning skills. They don’t even know how to wipe down a table, dabbing at it with a wet sponge instead of wiping it across the surface, rinsing it out, etc.
2) About 1/2 of the female leaders seem to think that their title is “Troop Mom” instead of “Assistant Scoutmaster” and keep stepping in to cook, clean, etc.
I have had to step in and tell women, “Please set that down and step away. That’s your son’s job.” I have had to tell this to some of them several times. And I’ve seen a lot of resistance from boys about learning how to cook and clean, never mind doing it. I’ve seen boys quit over the idea that they would actually be expected to cook their own food and clean up afterwards.
BTW; I say “Assistant Scoutmaster” because our Scoutmaster is male. I have seen some fine female Scoutmasters. I’ve also seen some not-so-fine ones, but then I’ve seen some not-so-fine male SMs as well.
This comment was written by RonF.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 3:12 pm
Interesting thread. I’ve always stated that there are some things that biology or “nature” explains and some things that socialization or “nurture” explains. Anecdotally, I am not that neat a person. I’ve never really been overly neat, but can’t stand dirt. So though my desk is a mess and there are clothes on the floor, the bathroom and kitchen are spotless. My husband is exactly opposite of me, and is a neat freak and a clean freak.
I believe this is because my Mother was fanatical about cleaning as was her Mother and I’m still rebelling against that “What will people think if you’re house is dirty” mantra I heard my whole life. I mean my mother used to iron the towels and sheets on a daily basis. My husband grew up in a military household, and was the only one of three children without some form of learning or developmental disorder. This meant that my husband was taught the mantra that I had heard all my life, but unlike me he finds a clean and tidy environment to be more relaxing than I do. I don’t give much thought to my environment unless something is broken. This means that in our marriage, I do most of the cooking, but my husband does most of the boring housework that I can’t stand.
Some people think that this situation isn’t fair because the tasks aren’t divided evenly, but it works for us. That’s not to say that I leave things for him. We have three children and laundry waits for noone. So our agreement is that whomever is here when it needs to be done does it. This has worked very well for us.
This comment was written by Mendy.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Plunky and Robert, you can attempt to spin what I’m saying if you like as some meaningless message at the expense of respect, but that simply isn’t the case. What we’re discussing here is the indoctrination of little girls and young women into a mode of thought or action that is subservient to men. Do I want my children to feel that my family is not correct in how they have dealt with this? Yes I want my children to understand exactly that. I’ve been extremely open about my reasoning with my family, and am more than happy to discuss the subject at any point they want to. Like I said initially, it’s taken a while but at this point we have reached a rather grumpy understanding where my mother gets the help cleaning that she rightly deserves, and our daughters get the message we feel is best about the sharing of household duties among men and women (or partners, or roomates etc).
This comment was written by Kim (basement variety!).Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Kim, I think the explicit lesson you’re teaching your children is admirable. It’s the same lesson we’re modeling for our kids - everybody works, everybody shares, everybody contributes, there’s no such thing as “women’s work” or “men’s work”. It just seems like your implementation of the principle is adolescent. You’re requiring your elders to redesign their flow of life to accommodate your choices and preferences. That’s justifiable - if your elders are practicing forced polygamy or suttee or something. For dishes, not so much.
It seems to me that you could get your message across with more effectiveness and less downstream backlash by letting your mother run her household the way she wants to, and then talking with your kids about it. “Sydney bean, did you notice what happened after dinner at gramma’s house?” “People watched TV!” “Well, grampa and daddy watched TV. What did you and me and gramma and auntie Flo do?” “We did dishes and put away the food.” “Why do you think it happened that way, that all the girls went into the kitchen?” “I dunno.” “Is that what we do at our house?” “No, at our house daddy helps.” “Which do you think is better?” and so on. With a bit of luck, you’ll have adorable Sydney pestering Grandma to stop being a tool of the patriarchy and possibly eliciting her active conversion - as opposed to the grumpy status quo you’ve personally managed, which is probably the best you can hope for doing it adversarially through challenge.
Doing it the way you’re doing it is implicitly teaching your kid that she can override your values in your house at her discretion. Just my $0.02; she’s not my kid. (But I’ll take her if you get bored.)
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 5:12 pm
The thing is, Robert, I believe there very likely will be a point where Sydney and Maddox might do just that, and hopefully I’ll be open to discussing with them why they are doing it. By engaging as you stated, I see a complicity in indoctrination that is simply unacceptible for me, and while I can’t speak for him, Matt as well (I’ll have him peak at the thread and perhaps he’ll offer his own view).
Ultimately my mother and father’s home is not one of permanent redesign, but one where if they want for Matt and I to actively participate in the dynamic while we are there, it has to be in a way that is not sending out mixed or confusing messages to our daughters. Also, I don’t think that adolescent is correct simply because there is a bit of a challenge associated with what I’m doing. I’m not expecting their views or lives to change, but instead for them to understand that our views and lifestyle is very different, and that unfortunately I see their practice (and my own indoctrination in that regard, which was considerably hard work sorting out into a system that made sense to me - ultimately feminism) as unacceptible to pass along to my daughters. Even though my mother at times has felt that I’m directly challenging her in this regard, the challenge is very much directed at the indoctrination that I’m being asked (despite adamant views to the opposition) to be complicit in. Sure it’s little, but the little things pile up and mean something. The little things are the things that ultimately help preserve the very backbone of male priviledge.
This comment was written by Kim (basement variety!).Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 5:17 pm
Argh - and one last point. I believe that in order for it to be adolescent or along the lines that Plunky has described it, I would have to be insisting that my father or brother join in the cleaning process (sometimes they do just because, but it’s always done in a manner that implies it is a gracious favor to my mother).
This comment was written by Kim (basement variety!).Report this comment to the moderators
May 31st, 2006 at 9:40 pm
I’m still reeling from the suggestion that women somehow evolved to be more cleanly than men because we have to change our underwear more often due to menstruation (Hmm, didn’t realize underwear–probably a recent invention, no?–could play such a role in the evolution…a process which surely has been going on long, long, long before underwear was invented).
Also exactly what sources on female reproductive health have you been reading? Throw them out!!!!! Yeast infections have nothing to do with cleanliness–they are not caused by the spread of bacteria or viruses and they are usually not caught from someone else. It’s the vagina itself that produces the infection by producing more yeast than normal. Cleaning the vagina won’t do a damn thing to prevent yeast infections.
In fact, “cleaning” the vagina is BAD for it. Soap and water never need to go inside the vagina because the vagina is SELF-cleaning. So evolutionarily it would make sense for women to be LESS cleanly than men, not more cleanly.
This comment was written by activistgradgal.Report this comment to the moderators
June 1st, 2006 at 12:11 am
Do you think that sexual harassment of men has increased by 50% in the period, or do you think it more likely that men are more likely to complain then they were a decade ago? If the latter, what makes you think that the current 85% figure more reflective of reality than the previous 90% figure?
More generally, given that sexual harassment is generally perceived to be committed by men against women, do you not think that a man being harassed by a woman might not make a complaint through fear that if he does, he will be subject to a devastating counter-accusation?
This comment was written by Daran.Report this comment to the moderators
June 1st, 2006 at 7:16 am
Well, Kim, I hope didn’t annoy you too much. It sounds like you and your husband have a system that works for you. It wouldn’t work for me, but that’s fine, of course. Talked to my wife about this last night, and she mostly agrees with your stance. Maybe I’m just a whackjob.
But it may also be that this is not how my family works. My mom tends to cook, because she’s by far the best at it, then my stepdad or I do the dishes. I’ve been in households where it is divided along gender lines, and it really doesn’t bother me. I don’t necessarily think that just because a system has different roles for men and women, that it must be destroyed. But then, I took a lot of anthropology in college, so I don’t think that my way is necessarily the ONLY way. There’s a lot of different ways out there, and people are OK with their own systems.
This comment was written by plunky.Report this comment to the moderators
June 1st, 2006 at 9:51 am
Are there any studies out there showing whether websites such as CarsDirect have helped reduce the discrimination against women in pricing cars? I would think that they should.
This comment was written by Kali.Report this comment to the moderators
June 1st, 2006 at 10:08 am
I think my husband does more housework than some other guys his age who live with women probably do. I do get on his case often to do more, however. I think that I was socialized to think of housekeeping as an ongoing thing, exactly like personal grooming. Whereas he, and a lot of other guys, were socialized to think of housekeeping as something that they didn’t have to think about. The woman would think about it and direct you. This point came up a few times on the Pandagon thread about housework as being a huge aggravation to more than one woman because home upkeep is our job to the world at large whether we think so or not. That is, I feel as if I’m thinking about housework all the time. Why should I be the only one who spends gray matter thinking about it every day ?
That being said, I used to have a female co-tenant who was both a neat freak and a clutter fiend. We had huge arguements about housekeeping because I resented that it was impossible to clean anything in our house without moving tons of superfluous crap first. So I blew off much of the stuff she wanted cleaned because I resented all the things that had to be gotten out of the way first. Crap that I was forbidden to ever throw out. After I moved out, though, she ended up with a male tenant who was even neater than she was. He put her stuff away in places where she could never find it and drove her nuts. After he left, she had a female co-tenant who was even more of a packrat than she was. It was all almost enough to make me belive in God.
This comment was written by ms_xeno (fka alsis39).Report this comment to the moderators
June 1st, 2006 at 3:13 pm
Nathaniel:
I am putting on my Actual Degree in Evolutionary Biology Hat here, to say:
“back that puppy up with studies of non-human species or take it back.”
Your argument is based on issues of personal hygiene, which in my experience is a completely different issue than house cleanliness, which we biologists call “nest site maintenance”. Nest site maintenance is about parasite control. Most primates do not have regular nest sites, but move around every few days. This means that as an order primates tend to be messy, because why bother when you’re not going to be there when the flea eggs hatch (2-3 weeks).
The human flea (Pulex irritans) is not human-specific, but is a pig flea that expanded its range. I was actually surprised to find this out, because as a rule animal parasites (& diseases) move to humans after domestication, so I expected human fleas would be related to dog fleas, since dogs were domesticated 100,000 years ago, pigs no more than 10,000 ya. The flea evidence suggests that most humans did not have semi-permanent nest sites — and the need to keep them clean — before the Agricultural Revolution.
(side note: this means that when we say someone’s messy home is “a pig sty”, we are being accurate. fleas included!)
So, we’ve got: a) chimpanzees don’t do housekeeping, so evolution wouldn’t have much genetic material to “work with”, b) humans have needed “housekeeping genes” for only about 500 generations (remember, humans don’t have a distinctive flea species even though we’ve had fleas for at least 300,000 flea generations), and c) housekeeping normally has to be taught, and with difficulty.
Conclusion with Actual Science Content™: there is no scientific need to suppose that humans have evolved “housecleaning genes”, much less that they differ by sex.
So why does Nathaniel immediately suggest them as a possibility? Because he hates housekeeping (see above, under “primates”), and he can’t believe that the women he knows are willing to do it unless they feel biologically compelled, and so he lets them. And then he doesn’t have to keep his own parasites at bay.
Sorry Nathaniel, I’m a woman (*waves XX chromosomes, offspring*) and I’m a typical primate, too, i.e. a slob. You gotta learn to clean your own nest site — and both you and the women in your life have to learn when you really need to just let the mess go, and say “it’s clean enough, really”.
This comment was written by Doctor Science.Report this comment to the moderators
June 2nd, 2006 at 2:07 am
Just a big MY GOODNESS! The issue here, in my opinion, is that the mundane, the everyday, and the VALUE placed on cetain tasks…rather than the division of labor, is the issue. It is essential to process the value system in order to change the priviledge model we know so well. Cleaning a toilet has to happen from time to time, laundry, food preparation, the awesome and enduring work and pleasure derrived from caring for a child, and such…the issue is that somehow those who assume these responsibilities in a disproportionate fashion, are traditionally women. Yup, things are changing it is true. So it goes…now that women are accessing education and actively working outside the home, we continue to see that the majority of the housework reamins as theirs! The fundamental tasks and whoever it may be who is assuming them, regardless of gender, must be perceived as valuable. The more overt work such as making a buck, getting an education, etc…are traditionally thought of as more important than the more covert and behind the scenes activities. WRONG! Until we see that nurturing a child, painting a room, mopping a floor and preparing a meal are essential, necessary and valuable, we will have a problem. Seems like we get caught up in placing tremendous importance on what is most apparent on an elementary basis. What we see, the apparent, gets higher stature.
This comment was written by Heron.The person scrubbing the toilet is as important as the fat cat! My own action is working toward the fair distribution of labor while understanding that we must have things taken care of in order to expand our minds. Soooooooo Scrub toilets one week, push pencil the next, then trade. Until we experience the trenches so to speak, we will continue to misunderstand the reality of what it is like to be there, and continue the to participate in the disparity generated by most of the “housework” getting done by women, and hence the whole male priviledge therein.
Evolution is uncomfortable at times. Personally, I require the intellectual stimulation that comes from something besides planning a dinner. My hope is that we can collectively move toward the understanding that activities are not borne of gender and that roles can be changed. It is about fairness and human value. Let us all roll up our proverbial sleeves!
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June 2nd, 2006 at 11:07 am
So why does Nathaniel immediately suggest them as a possibility?
Because “it’s genetic, honey” sounds so much better than “I just feel like letting you do all the housework.”
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
June 2nd, 2006 at 2:47 pm
Sheezelbub wrote: And Natheniel, WHY do you think women care about the inside of a toilet? Do you think there’s a toilet-cleaning gene that just magically appears in women?
Not a gene, but a genie. I used to believe that all the animated mascots for cleaning products would clean the house, like Mr. Clean, the White Tornado, Scrubbing Bubbles, etc…(ms_xeno probably thinks I believe they still do.)
When I had my bachelor pad, it wasn’t filthy - I did clean it when I felt necessary. But it wasn’t a regular thing. (Dirty dishes didn’t pile up because I had this thing called a “dishwasher” in my two-ass kitchen. )
And I do clean up after *your cat* who decides to poop next to (not in) the litterbox. :P
This comment was written by Aaron V..Report this comment to the moderators
June 2nd, 2006 at 7:55 pm
Christ on a cracker, how far can you stick your head up your own ass?
This comment was written by Chicken Scratch.Report this comment to the moderators
June 3rd, 2006 at 9:57 am
Hi, I’m a male, and I have the privledge of being a guy.
One of my privledges is a value system that includes about 2 hours of housework a week. I don’t really understand cleaning the toilet (its more efficient to just NOT clean it). I would be more than happy to split the difference, with each member of the household performing 1 hour of this work. In fact, I’ll do both hours. . . I did it when I lived alone, and I’d be happy to do it now. . . if it woud make my spouse happy.
Unfortuately, my significant other has a value system that requires about 10 hours of work each week. For instance, she thinks the dishes should be done as we use them, as opposed to piled up in the sink and done once a week (hey - it’s much more efficient that way). To support this value system, she would like to split the difference with me, giving us each 5 hours of work a week.
Now. . . remember, under my value system, I have no requirements from her. I am not asking her to do anything.
Under her system. . . I am nagged until I comply with her values. When I fail to do so, we argue about it. Remember, I am not asking her to do anything.
Am I realy off base here? Why?
This comment was written by Chris.Report this comment to the moderators
June 3rd, 2006 at 10:21 am
I don’t really understand cleaning the toilet (its more efficient to just NOT clean it).
Which is to say, it’s more efficient for you to ignore the need to clean the toilet, because eventually your spouse will.
If you’re not just trolling, Chris, then it might occur to you that things do not magically become clean if you ignore them long enough.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
June 3rd, 2006 at 10:55 am
But mythago, he’s not complaining that things aren’t getting clean. He’s saying that his house is clean enough for his values with 2 hours of work a week. His wife is saying that her house is clean enough for her values with 10 hours of work a week.
Chris’ examples seems to be a classic example of men and women simply having different expectations. Chris’ failure to do 5 hours a week of housework might be an instance of he and his wife not adequately negotiating their differing preferences, but it isn’t a failure to do his share of the housework. It’s a conflict over what the total labor level should be, not how it should be divided.
Mark that one under female privilege; women (broadly) seem to feel that their level of housework preference is the objectively correct level, and male failure to embrace their values is intrinsically problematic.
This comment was written by Robert.Report this comment to the moderators
June 3rd, 2006 at 11:25 am
He’s saying that his house is clean enough for his values with 2 hours of work a week.
He’s saying that his house is clean enough for his values with 2 hours of his work a week and his wife’s 10 hours of work a week. The latter enables the former. Nobody believes toilets clean themselves unless somebody else is cleaning the toilets for them.
Mark this one under male privilege: it’s easy to see housework as ‘unnecessary’ when you don’t understand how much of it needs to be done.
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
June 3rd, 2006 at 11:36 am
Chris’ examples seems to be a classic example of men and women simply having different expectations. Chris’ failure to do 5 hours a week of housework might be an instance of he and his wife not adequately negotiating their differing preferences, but it isn’t a failure to do his share of the housework. It’s a conflict over what the total labor level should be, not how it should be divided.
Funny, where do you think these differing expectations on what’s an appropriate total amount of housework come from?
Mark that one under female privilege; women (broadly) seem to feel that their level of housework preference is the objectively correct level, and male failure to embrace their values is intrinsically problematic.
Hahahahaha! Privilege to have people tell you you’re a failure as a woman because you failed the white glove test? Robert, this is silly. The expectation is that women have to maintain a higher standard of cleanliness, hence the need for more housework.
This comment was written by evil_fizz.Report this comment to the moderators
June 3rd, 2006 at 12:24 pm
It seems like many women are making assumtions that “who cleans the toilet” is some kind of battle of wills, where the male is stubborn enough to “outlast” his spouse and effectively make her clean it. It’s not. . . Really. A man such as myself, just doesn’t care. . . why would a woman care?
I certainly don’t expect anyone to put up with ten hours a week of housework, for me, for their kids, for their paretns, or for themselves. In my life, I do what I think is necessary, and I certainly don’t impose anything on another human being.
Also, whoever decided that a household requires, for example, 10 hours of housework a week is silly. The only stardard you should be working from is your own. If you don’t want to do it. . . don’t do it. I personally find that 2 hours a week is plently to feel comfortable in my environment. I was single for years after college, and somehow, I survived on about 2 hours a week without getting dysentery. To be fair, I remember doing a half-cocked job of cleaning the toilet once or twice. . . when company came over. Did they think it was good enough. I dunno. . . I don’t care.
Blame it on psychology, genetics, social conditioning, 1,000s of years of male oppression, or whatever. . . in the end, women still have control over their own value systems. If you don’t want to clean it, then just don’t do it! Expectations be damned, right?
Are you going to let society/the government/your significant other/your kids/your mother tell you how to run your life? It seems to me that you are wanting to rid yourself of one set of expectations (doing more than your fair share of the housework), but embracing another set of expectations (women should have x level of cleanliness in their homes). Pick one, pick both, pick neither. . . and accept teh consequences. The point is. . . it’s up to you.
This comment was written by Chris.Report this comment to the moderators
June 3rd, 2006 at 12:43 pm
I was single for years after college, and somehow, I survived on about 2 hours a week without getting dysentery.
So the excuse is that a single man living alone generates as much laundry, dirty dishes, and other need for housecleaning as a family with children?
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
June 3rd, 2006 at 1:02 pm
Eh… I suspect I have about the same standards for cleanliness as you do, Chris. (I’m female.) Well, without knowing more about your style I can’t say that unequivocally, because I have been in some men’s apartments where they don’t clean the toilet ever (or the bath, or the towels, or the urine lying in little puddles) and… yes. Squalor.
I think you’re making the assumption that your 2 hours is a right and correct number, though, which is amusing to me because it also sounds like you’re also assuming that your wife’s 10 hours is wrong. Why can’t you both be wrong?
I have no idea what numbers are appropriate, or what standards are appropriate, etc. But I do think it’s probably appropriate for men (and/or the slovenly partner, in my household: me) to point out that passing the white glove test is not necessarily something a couple should strive for - or at least set as a mutual goal.
High standards of cleanliness may be trained into women (primarily), but that doesn’t mean they have to be embraced. Low standards may be permitted in men, but that doesn’t mean they have to be embraced either. If we can acknowledge that some women’s need for extreme cleanliness - to pass the white glove test - is socialized - then we can acknowledge that it’s not necessarily something that should be indulged or enforced.
I can see the point that agreeing on a mutual standard is important. Also, if we want subsequent generations *not* socialize women into feeling they have to be super-clean to be good, then maybe relaxing white glove standards to a certain extent isn’t a bad thing.
I would be hesitant, though, to say that Chris’s partner is striving for an unreasonable standard with 10 hours a week. I really have no idea about thei