The fact that I could see anything at all, even death, as dastardly and violating as being raped shows me for the insensitive uncaring individual I am. Nothing, no prison term, no physical pain, no lifelong stigma can compare. It is ok to minimize any and every other possible sort of suffering, and we should, except rape.

In your blanket minimization of rape, you minimize the murder of alleged rape victims.

Yes you read the wrong sentence. Here is the sentence to which I referred (sentence number 4 from comment #17):
The feminist belief that ending discrimination against women will also function to end discrimination against men is far too complex (effects of patriarchy, gender roles, etc.), IMO, to deserve an in depth answer to such a stereotypically thoughtless statement.

The sentence you responded to was #5 & would have been a nonsensical thing for me to note that you ignored. But you knew that.

You seem to be saying that you see no way in which women are disprivileged in comparison to men. Willfull blindness is as willfull blindness does.

I also have a problem with the state of our prisons where violence and inmate rape are accepted as a part of the punishment, but that is a tangential issue.

Not only is it tangental, but the leap from the impact of rape on victims to concerns about prison diminishes both problems. If people want to address problems with the state of our prisons, that’s no more linked to the severity of rape than it is to the severity of armed robbery or identity theft.

Again. Your ignorance is staggering. Men have to register for selective service–and women are barred from combat–because of opposition in Congress and the armed forces, both institutions which are overwhelmingly–male. Feminists either reject and actively oppose the notion of war (and the selective service by the way), or, in the case of some feminists, assert that women should register as well.

You brought up the more rights strawman. You back it up. You don’t get to bring this up and then say that you don’t feel like citing any stats or concrete examples of enshrined rights that women have and that men don’t.

As for voting for female candidates–another commentor covered this on this blog, and Amp answered it quite handily. I will point out to you, however, that when you’ve got the major political parties dominated and funded overwhelmingly by men, you are more likely to get male candidates.

Finally, I suggest you stop your finger-wagging and preaching at us about what we should fight for, and how we should fight for all human rights. Your own comments here show a woeful lack of empathy or compassion for what women go through–you throw up strawfeminists who have more rights than men, but cannot back up your claims and refuse to do so, you dismiss what female rape survivors endure and then pitch a fit when it’s pointed out to you, you show an ignorance of history that can be nothing more than willful when you cite oft-repeated, and oft-debunked myths to further dismiss the discrimination women face.

You weren’t told you dismissed female rape survivors because you have an opinion, and I suggest you stop your pissy, passive-aggressive temper tantrum. I see right through it, dear. You were taken to task for dismissing what female rape survivors went through because you said it was worse for men (since they are male, and it makes them feel less manly–infering that it’s natural for women to endure rape), that getting raped while passed out is no big deal, and that women really don’t want men to check for consent (again–thanks for telling us little ladies what we really want, you big strong man you!).

I am not going to fight your battles for you if you can’t be bothered to fight them yourself. You are not entitled to my time or energy–nor are you entitled to preach to me or anyone else about what we should be fighting for. What have you done, besides preach at feminists over your hangups about women, pull some classic tricks out of the passive-aggressive “debate” tactics book, and demonstrate your almost willful denial of reality?

As for the lesser legal responsibilities. This is mentioned so often it is simply ignored by the majority now. If you can give me a legal responsibility held by women and not by men I would like to hear it, as I never have, but I point to selective service as the inverse. I won’t go into reproductive rights or child abandonment laws because they are debateable based on biological differences. Registering for selective service, however, is not a shared responsibility in any sense.

No matter what I ever say about rape or my opinion of it severity I will be minimizing it in some peoples eyes. Even if I had been raped I would be wrong. The fact that I could see anything at all, even death, as dastardly and violating as being raped shows me for the insensitive uncaring individual I am. Nothing, no prison term, no physical pain, no lifelong stigma can compare. It is ok to minimize any and every other possible sort of suffering, and we should, except rape. (sorry for the sarcasm but the “you are minimizing rape victim suffering by having an opinion” argument is worn out with me)

I love the way priviledged groups get thrown in here. I am a working-class man myself. If it is the majority of the population we are talking about, I struggle to see the huge pay gaps in day to day life. Does wal-mart pay male greeters more? I spent quite a few years in the military and despite the lowered female standards they recieved equal pay…I am relatively certain that is standard for all federal and state jobs as well. Does Mcdonalds have a pay gap for it’s fry cooks? The last time you worked on the loading docks or on an assembly line…did men make more based on gender? I know they get regulated to the more physical tasks to help it run “smoother” but did they actually get paid more for it? It didn’t work that way in any union position I have ever seen. So you would have laws passed that clearly discriminate against a large majority of the male population to see a few priviledged individuals, who will probably have connections to get around such laws, punished. Now there is the very definition of fair and equal for you.

If you want females in politics, get involved and vote for them. Find a candidate you would like to see in office. Have them nominated and vote them into office. 4% is a small population difference, but it is more than enough to make a huge swing in who gets voted into office. But, please, for the good of everyone, find a candidate that is willing to lose without blaming her gender. I don’t think high ranking gov’t officials are a good yardstick to use to measure gender equality though. I doubt many feminists would argue how good the common women of the Philippines have it simply because they have had 2 female presidents.

For the record I want to see fair. I don’t think constantly legislating “good” discrimination is the way to get there. Fair is fair even when the roles are reversed. If you truly want fair and want a majority of the men to back you then work hard for fairness. Call it that, not women’s rights or feminism. Work to stamp out special female priviledge as hard as you do to stamp out male priviledge. Work as hard to stop the suffering of humans as a race as you do females as a gender. How can a man, any man, be anything but defensive when there is an attack around every corner.

I didn’t mean to get this involved in the discussion. I didn’t mean to get this far off track and appologize for that as well. I am going to go back to just reading and shaking my head sadly for a while. Amp, thanks for the blog. A2H, thanks for the interesting threads. To the rest of you, I hope you find a way to get what you want without taking unfairly from others. Thanks for the discussion.

You misunderstood what I was saying, entirely. Especially since a given for the hypothetical was that the accused person was innocent. I have no problem with rape invovling a serious prison term.

I have a huge problem with an innocent person being put into that position.

I also have a problem with the state of our prisons where violence and inmate rape are accepted as a part of the punishment, but that is a tangential issue.

It is certainly true that not every accusation leads to conviction. Maybe I misunderstood the initial point. It would seem more fair to compare an accusation (without conviction) to the threat of rape, and a conviction to an actual rape. Maybe that’s just me.

” Also, do you have evidence that rapists (as opposed to child molesters) are more likely to be murdered in prison? And how likely is that?”

As opposed to child molestors? No. But as opposed to non-sexual crimes convicts? Yes I have seen studies that show it. I can try to find some if you like.

“Can you tell me why this matters so much to you? Why do you think this is a relevant comparison to make? What makes “proving” that people who are falsely convicted and then raped in prison suffer more than rape victims so important to you?”

What exactly is it that makes you think this matter is “so” important to me? I saw what would seem to be a unequal judgement and I tried to correct it.

While certainly a vivid story notice that your protagonist has essentially pulled his life back together within a year of the rape. Now consider that Rape I in oregon (as an example) is an A10 felony meaning a minimum sentence of 100 months (just over 8 years).

Ah, now we’re getting to what I believe is behind picking false accusations as worse than rape. For all the huffing and puffing about false accusations, I’ve had the feeling that this line of reasoning relates to true allegations of rape and how unfair the system is to non-monsterous convicted rapists.

It’s the POV that most rapes are so insignificant that any prison time is cruel and unusual punishment.

By this reasoning, the sentence for attempted murder should depend on how quickly our victim recovers. Sentences are about more than payback, they are about public safety. You don’t think the fictional woman in my example has only one victim, do you?

I don’t think this point actually matters to this discussion - although it’s hard for me to be sure, because the discussion itself seems utterly pointless to me. But in general, I think more clarity of thought will be maintained if you could try not to conflate false accusations and false convictions, because the two things are not interchangeable.

Also, do you have evidence that rapists (as opposed to child molesters) are more likely to be murdered in prison? And how likely is that?

* * *

I agree. Generally, anyone (female or male) who is falsely convicted and spends years in prison, and is raped while in prison, is worse off than someone (female or male) who is raped but not falsely imprisoned, all else held equal.

Can you tell me why this matters so much to you? Why do you think this is a relevant comparison to make? What makes “proving” that people who are falsely convicted and then raped in prison suffer more than rape victims so important to you?

I also think that someone who has both arms hacked off with a machete and is raped is probably worse off than a typical rape victim. What I don’t understand is why anyone would find making these sorts of comparisons useful.

I really can’t see any point to playing “victimization Olympics,” but you don’t seem to have any other interest in this thread.

Now consider that Rape I in oregon (as an example) is an A10 felony meaning a minimum sentence of 100 months (just over 8 years).

What do you want to bet that at LEAST 8 years of life in prison is worse? Okay now add in the fact that the prisoner faces a very real probablity of being raped, repeatedly, violently, and with no recourse to any sort of counseling or justice. Of course he may get raped if lucky since sex offenders tend to be the most likely targets of inmate violence. He’s going to be one quick step away from a toe tag. For years.

Now add in that our hypothetical innocently accused man is a registered sex offender and even once he gets out will be followed the rest of his life by the conviction. His neighbors will be told that he is a rapist. He will never get a decent job. He will never ever get to pull his life together the way your protagonist did.

Yeah both situations suck incredibly. But the innocently accused is clearly far worse.

Or, for an even brighter light to shine on the subject: guys like you who simply refuse to *think* and expect women to spend all their time regurgitating history, well over a hundred years of feminist theory (you have read JS Mills, right?), and rape/dv statistics.

Do your own homework son. Read some Marx, some JS Mills, MacKinnon, Dworkin, hooks. Hell, read anything. But do it yourself.

They have a majority of the college graduates

Yet men are more heavily represented in positions of power and influence, and they make more.

Yet now, in every state, income bracket, and racial/ethnic group, women are earning 57 percent of all bachelor’s degrees, 58 percent of all master’s degrees, and rapidly closing in on men as doctorate recipients, according to the U.S. Department of Education. And, women are close to making up the majority of law students, according to the American Bar Association.

Still, some females with equal education — in the case of recent MBA graduates — are offered salaries 3 to 4 percent lower than males, notes professor Leanne Atwater in the School of Management at Arizona State University West.

and they have a superior LEGAL status in relation to rights and responsibilties…meaning more or equal rights and less responsibilities.

This is not true. If you are going to make such a statement, back it up–and don’t waste my time with any of these anti-feminist wingnut sites as “proof”.

Also, if men are in power and men never help women…how did this situation arise? I almost hate to leave this last paragraph in because it is argumentative and I don’t want to start a fight… but I never understood the logic behind that stance and such an obvious contradiction.

You said that feminists should help men. I pointed out that men, as a class, did not go out of their way to help women gain rights. Go on, look through history. There is no mass movement of men to liberate women (and I am not talking about a few sympathetic men who helped out–I am talking about men, as a class of people. The way you were talking about feminists, as a class of people). All of the rights we enjoy came through women’s work and women’s sacrifice. Way to completely dismiss yet another thing women have done.

While we’re at it, pay no attention to the many ways you’ve dismissed the suffering of female rape victims–you’d rather get raped while passed out since it’s not as big a deal as being sent to prison, checking for consent is oh-so-inconvenient and besides, we silly ladies don’t really want that, rape is “worse” for men because it makes them feel less manly (do you think it makes women feel womanly or great?? Jesus.)

Yes. Very dissmissive, very patronizing. Repeating the line that you’re not minimizing the rapes of women does not make it true.

Your ignorance of reality–and of history–is truly breathtaking.

No wait…

Strangely enough, certain minority groups (WASPs, rich people, men) seem to do a pretty good job of protecting their interests in our political system.

Success! You have brought up absolutely no concepts that have not already been brought up and addressed. Just read through the various threads (many of them recent) and you’ll get the answers to your questions. Although, to be fair, I can tell you that you won’t be satisfied with any of them.

One last question for you… Do you criticize civil rights activists for not fighting discrimination agains whites in the USA? When a movement is advocating for equal rights for an oppressed group it is in no way obliged to advocate against discrimination against the dominant group. You’re just being silly.

Oh, and you totally ignored sentence #4 of my comment #17. Another concept (and ignoring of) that is not new. Hurrah!

A2H,
First, I don’t think I enmeshed fear of false allegations in with actual rape. If it seemed like that to you I was unclear or you misread what I said. I said I don’t understand what it is like to be a rape victim and do not fear it. There is a lot of talk on this site and by other feminists on how fear of rape due to rape culture makes every woman a victim. I don’t understand that fear because I have none of it. I have never NOT walked a particular way or gone to a particular place worried about being raped so it is outside of my scope…I can only try to empathize.

I have avoided intimate situations with women because I have come not to trust them as a gender. I have ended relationships because they have started displaying suspect behaviors that looked like it would lead to accusations or attempts to manipulate. I have also stopped giving most the benefit of the doubt due to personal experience and experiences shared to me by friends I trust. You can call that misogyny if you like and it is as accurate as saying that being fearful of being raped by a man is misandry.

I also believe I stated over and over that I am not trying to minimize the suffering of rape victims. I am saying that the falsely accused are victims as well. I truly believe that individuals that falsely accuse intentionally and with malice are vicimizers, abusers, and criminals. If that minimizes the suffering of rape victims I do not see how. I have stated that given the choice I think I would rather survive the rape. That is a personal opinion and only minimizes rape if you dismiss being falsely accused as unimportant. I think we have agreed on the fact that being agaisnt one does not make you for the other… that is a narrowminded, irrational way of oversimplifying it.

Amp,
I don’t think everyone here feels that way but some of the bloggers do. In even my limited experience I have run across many bloggers here and elsewhere that seem to feel that male suffering doesnt count. To them the potential distress of a rape victim fearing backlash, meaning being accused of making it up, outweighs the suffering of a man who is falsely accused and watches his accuser walk away annonymous and unpunished or is himself incarcerated or labled for life. Perhaps they are right, but I disagree. I like this blog, even when I sit silent I read it. I disagree often, but I like the tone and civility of it.

Jake,
Defining feminism as the fight for EQUAL rights and then saying that it is ok for feminists to ignore discrimination against men is hypocracy … you can do either or and I am fine with it, but if you do both I feel it is wrong. (general statement) I also dislike the propensity of so many to ping pong back and forth between equal under the law and equal outcome whenever it suits thier purpose. That goes out to BOTH sides of the argument. Pick one and argue it, but don’t stand behind equal legal status for one gender and equal results for the other…it makes you look dumb.

Q grrl and Sheelzebub,
I loved seeing your posts back to back and have to ask this question. If women are 52% of the population in a democracy, how do men have all the power? I know it is not one person saying it and I am not trying to lump it together, but you are both feminists right? Everything I have read recently says women control the majority of the wealth in the U.S. and have a majority of the buying power as consumers as well. They have a majority of the college graduates and they have a superior LEGAL status in relation to rights and responsibilties…meaning more or equal rights and less responsibilities. Also, if men are in power and men never help women…how did this situation arise? I almost hate to leave this last paragraph in because it is argumentative and I don’t want to start a fight… but I never understood the logic behind that stance and such an obvious contradiction.

Personally, I want equality and I want women to have more. Do you, as a man, feel that you have to lose something in order for me to have either/both? If so, that’s a shame. It’s hard for me to imagine feeling so threatened by someone trying to better their life.

My point was that you look like you care about everyone when you throw a bone.

Compare the statements.

We want equality.
We want women to have more.

Sometimes they are equivalent. But not always. are you at statement 2?

Gosh, you’re right. Why, I look back over history, and see the masses of men standing up to end discrimination against women, it just puts a lump in my throat.

Oh, wait. . .