My daughter is not conventionally pretty. Graceful is harder for me to measure; certainly she has more control over her body’s movements than other young women who haven’t been in athletic training for about the last 10 years. And I wouldn’t say she was “big”; she’s not notably tall or short, and she’s not heavy (although she’s not fitting into designer jeans any time soon). But she’s quite healthy. And damn active. She won’t be asked to pose for FHM any time soon, but I’ll be damned if I don’t think she’s attractive.

In post #14, when you said, “As for those who want their girls to be big and strong, rather than pretty and graceful - I hope your girls do get big and strong, but I dont know if they would like or enjoy that.”

I am terribly offended that you are implying that I am somehow harming my daughter by raising her to be active, self assured and not worrying about being demure. Perhaps that was not your intent, but by stating that you don’t know if they would enjoy that or not, you really are implying that we are “bad parents.

“I think grace (often associated with kindness) ” Really? Says who? I’m a very kind person - I try to be so anyway, and it’s generally a word that others use to describe me, but grace is not a word ANYONE would ever use to describe me. I think of grace as a physical attribute associated with how one moves. I’d love for my daughter to grow up with gracefulness as an attribute, but I see absolutely no reason that particular attribute can not peacefully coexist with being active, strong and outgoing.

As for this: “Hello - Dont make it sound as if “conventionally attractive” or absence of it is only a problem for women only. What about men who are NOT big or strong, but maybe incredibly kind, sensitive and/or smart? Are they not been discriminated against? Why the one-sided-martyrism? ”

Have you completely missed the point of the post? Amp, and most other feminists would completely agree with you that sexism and it’s inherent description of masculinity and narrow gender molds harms boys and men as well as girls and women. I don’t know a single feminist who would argue to the contrary. However, this particular post is about male privilege, and despite the fact that there are ways that sexism harms boys and men, the system of patriarchy does indeed provide certain privileges for men. The 2 Amp is discussing in this particular thread are 1) that basically, we expect mothers to be better parents to their children than we expect men, and we reward men more readily and more vocally for doing the very same things that women do most of the time without any kind of fanfare. 2) In our society today, boys are encouraged to be more active than are girls.

Amp’s post is simply arguing with a commentor who disagreed that those are real privileges that men hold. Those of us commenting were providing our own annecdotal evidence that Amp’s original post had resonated with our own experiences. I’m just having a difficult time understanding how your posts add anything to that discussion - do you disagree with the privileges Amp outlined? Do you have experience to the contrary? Then fine, say so, but at this point, you haven’t actually discussed the topic at hand. I too, have strayed from the topic, but at least I acknowledged it.

Finally, and again, if I am reading your tone wrong, forgive me, but I have to tell you that the feel I get from your post is basically… “Wah wah wah, men are hurt too. Why can’t we talk about that?” And to that I say, I suspect Amp does a GREAT DEAL of talking about how sexism harms men, and though that is an important discussion, why is it so awful to name and point out some of the privileges men gain in a patriarchal society? After all, we can not change that unless we see and name it as such, and we will not reduce the harms done to men by sexism unless we can change it.

Simply put it is incredibly hard to acheive all 4 qualities. In a world where insecurities run amok, do we really want to set standards even higher? jah, I am assuming you are a woman, as I said, hope all the girls who know what growing up is like - should know it was like and I think you can reason why I am ‘hoping’ that they like or enjoy it.

“But girls and women who aren’t conventionally attractive are sometimes discriminated against, and I can’t help wanting for both of them to not have to deal with that.”

Hello - Dont make it sound as if “conventionally attractive” or absence of it is only a problem for women only. What about men who are NOT big or strong, but maybe incredibly kind, sensitive and/or smart? Are they not been discriminated against? Why the one-sided-martyrism?

Where I live, stay at home dads and room fathers and male brownie leaders aren’t unusual, but when nmy baby was born abroad ( L America) the doctor who gave her her first shots was VERY patronizing to my husband, saying “daddies don’t know how to hold babies” and so forth.

As for those who want their girls to be big and strong, rather than pretty and graceful….

Why can’t we hope for them to be all four?

Sydney - the little girl whose photos (along with her baby sister’s) appear on this site every Monday - is already big and strong for her age, and quite pretty as well. (Admittedly, she’s not very graceful, but I don’t think many 2-year-olds are graceful.)

The prettiness thing is odd to think about, politically. I don’t think it matters if Sydney is pretty or not - I’d find her adorable whether or not she was a conventionally attractive child. But girls and women who aren’t conventionally attractive are sometimes discriminated against, and I can’t help wanting for both of them to not have to deal with that.

(Of course, there are down sides to being pretty, too. But that’s probably a subject for another post).

Why shouldn’t girls enjoy being big and strong? From personal experience, I can tell you that there’s a lot of joy in strength. Bigness? What I wouldn’t give to be tall enough to reach my cupboards or stuff on the top shelf. I’ll probably be killed someday by having a shelf full of canned goods fall on my while I’m climbing up them to reach the mushrooms.

Just because a girl isn’t tiny or graceful (or blond or what-have-you) doesn’t mean she will consider her body unacceptable or second rate, or that she can’t acquire friends or a mate.

Why men who are seen alone with their kids get more attention? Cause they are breaking the ’stereotype’ of male behaviour set in public minds. In other words, demonstration of sensitive behaviour on part of males is attention worthy (mostly from females).

On the other hand, if their behaviour was not very descriptive of their actions, they would be considered much differently. Imagine a young or midaged man alone in the ‘dolls’ isle. I have been there and I have received much harsher looks than any woman can EVER get about letting their kids run amok.

For all of you that have a problem for being blamed for the behaviour of their kids, consider who is targetted for blame when a kid isnt supported enough.

As for those who want their girls to be big and strong, rather than pretty and graceful - I hope your girls do get big and strong, but I dont know if they would like or enjoy that.

And Rose, wow! Nice to hear from you. Thanks for the kind words; I adore you too. Are you still working at Reading Frenzy?

(For foks who are wondering, Rose used to be my editor at the student paper when we were in college, between her bouts of globe-trotting.)

Also, our very sensitive and gentle son used to get bullied a lot in 1st grade, because he would try to resolve all conflicts by talking and being polite. I mean, that wasn’t understood even by the teachers, who (you’d think) should’ve been all over promoting non-violent behavior.

Just my anecdotal evidence ^_^

I love, love, love your blog and continue to love you. I saw you walking by psycho Safeway the other day…

xoxo
Rose R. (from the Vanguard)

PS-Katie Harmon now resides in my old backwater hometown. How ironic.

Kim,
When you have Sydney or Maddox dressed as boys and inevitably some stranger comments on how cute they are, “what is his name” or something to that affect, and you casually respond with “Her name is Sydney” - what’s the reaction you get? Maya frequently wears “boy” clothes such as these
(I don’t know if I can post a picture or not, but it helps to prove the point, so I’m going to try)
And when she’s out in public people get ANGRY when they find out she is a girl. I’ve literally had people yell at me for “dressing her like a boy.” Talk about people who are upset about a tiny bit of gender bending… which isn’t even really my motive. My Mother in law likes to buy blue and read clothes… they fit Maya, are weather appropriate and comfortable, so I put her in them, but it turns into a whole “conspiracy” of me trying to “trick” the outside world. I just find the whole thing weird. Not surprising of course, but weird. When Maya is dressed like this, people are much happier and low and behold, their voices are softer, their actions more subdued - it’s really facinating… Anyway, just wondered if strangers had the nerve to yell at you too, or if it’s just me.

Despite the disadvantages of being female in a very patriarchal household, I think that my brother, who was terrible at sports had it worse than me.