I suppose even without ovaries, a woman could bear an IVF conceived child from a donor ovum.

“Any time I just said that I always got comments ranging along the lines of that I didn’t know what I was missing, that if I had kids I would understand, that if I just got myself a good man I would change my mind, to that they were sorry for poor little me missing out. It used to piss me off because it happened so often”.

Yep. Know exactly what you mean. So well in fact that I’ve covered most,if not all of them on my blog Like It Is. If you’re interested, have a read under ” Childfree? Oh, you’ll change your mind”. And if there are any I’ve missed, just add them.

“And how odd is it that women get grief for putting their time and energy into things they get paid for, like work. But they get pats on the head for putting the same time and energy into work they don’t get paid for, like children and caring for ones elder relatives?”

It is. I think it’s called the woman “knowing her place.”

It is objectionable. But the woman does not have to allow others to stop her, either from making a choice that suits her, articulating it or living it. She has complete control there - but only if she chooses to exercise it.

“If she doesn’t have the gonads to tell Aunt Nosy to fuck off, she certainly doesn’t have the gonads to cure cancer”.

True. Whatever you do, someone is going to be displeased so you might as well please yourself.

Well, I suppose that’s objectionable, to the extent that a woman who says “I’m going to do something else for the world than that” is stopped from pursuing her goals.

But what do other people’s suppositions have to do with my (or her) power, or lack thereof? “I wanted to cure cancer instead…sniff…but the mean people expected me to have babies instead.” So sad, having all those mean people with their evil thoughts.

If she doesn’t have the gonads to tell Aunt Nosy to fuck off, she certainly doesn’t have the gonads to cure cancer.

Women can be caregivers, among other things, as can men. “Caregiver” isn’t what’s expected. What’s expected is “as long as you are doing something [seriously substantive] that takes time and energy and that you don’t get paid for”. Caregiving qualifies. Putting your life on the line for community or country qualifies. Mentoring lots of young people qualifies. Running Sunday Schools or Scout troops qualifies. Putting in good parenting qualifies. Creating soup kitchens qualifies.

Lots of things qualify.

Lots of people don’t live up to what they ought, but the expectation is still there. Dangly bits or crevice, makes no difference; this is (a big chunk of) what makes you an adult, or not. In the interests of not overly valorizing natalism (though I can think of few better things to valorize), people perhaps ought to ask “when are you going to grow up, dear?” instead of “so, are you going to have children soon?” - but that would be considered very blunt in many social circles. I observe/acknowledge there is some sexist bias in HOW the question is phrased to men and women alike - but the question is there for everyone, and is a question with weight and merit behind it.

It is OK to be childless as long as you are doing something else that takes all your time and energy and that you also don’t get paid for.

Well, yeah. This is pretty much the standard for being considered an adult human, or part of it. Although it doesn’t have to take all of your time.

What’s the problem?

So I could do anything I don’t get paid for that takes most of my time and energy and still not get grief from the pro kids folk? Cool! I want to spend my time learning to fly. Light planes, gyro-planes, hang gliders, parachuting. Somehow I don’t think I would get the same approval from the pro kid leagues if I gave that as my reason for not having kids.

Not following, Robert. The notion that women should be caregivers above all else is not one placed on men, who are supposed to devote their life to paid work.

Well, yeah. This is pretty much the standard for being considered an adult human, or part of it. Although it doesn’t have to take all of your time.

What’s the problem?

So your problem isn’t with parents, it’s with people who think that if you care about them, you will occasionally think about what matters to them rather than just you. Gotcha.

Even the men had to remark that some of the excahnge was unhelpful

O, irony!

But seriously, of course the men make those remarks. They’re happy and smug–nobody’s ragging their asses about not wanting to have kids, and nobody’s scolding them for being at home or not.

I have given the wrong impression. Sorry. I have spent the last 12 years taking care of my parents. First helping my mother care for my father, now I take care of mom. But I never wanted kids. Any time I just said that I always got comments ranging along the lines of that I didn’t know what I was missing, that if I had kids I would understand, that if I just got myself a good man I would change my mind, to that they were sorry for poor little me missing out. It used to piss me off because it happened so often. “How old are you dear? Shouldn’t you think about finding a husband and starting a family? Clock is ticking you know”. It did not occur to me to tell folks I was caretaking the elderly, it was my mom’s idea. Turned out she was a bit more in tune with how folks thought than I was. Now when folks make rude comments about my lack children, I look at them all solemn and say I am taking care of my mom. If they really annoy me, I go into detail about mom’s health. Shuts them right up. It is OK to be childless as long as you are doing something else that takes all your time and energy and that you also don’t get paid for. Older folks do a complete turnaround, I go from being a selfish, childless woman to being a kind, giving woman who will be blessed. Younger folks boggle at the thought of having to take care of their parents and just shut up.

And how odd is it that women get grief for putting their time and energy into things they get paid for, like work. But they get pats on the head for putting the same time and energy into work they don’t get paid for, like children and caring for ones elder relatives?

“As long as “I” as a female are considered to be doing work, unpaid, that is nurturing in some fashion, I am an acceptable woman. Just telling folks I don’t want kids and never did always got criticism and assurances that I would make a wonderful mother and that that I really needed to have kids. It seems it would make me a better person. But caretaking the elderly is almost as good”.

I never thought of that one! Almost as good. What can I say? You are bang on. To be acceptable as a female in this society one must be seen to be nuturing, caring and prepared to empty self of self for kids - whether one wants them or not. These are the rules.

Wish you didn’t have to do that, (and I refuse to play by the rules, )but we are all different and knowing the constant barrage of criticsism you must have got - I can understand your approach. The assurances that you really need to have kids are almost as bad - I get those too - particularly when you know there is an underlying judgement lurking just below the surface.

Alas, not a human failing limited to women, or to any particular subgroup.

And if you stayed home 24/7, I’m sure the same people would see to it that you are labelled A Less Than Good Person - for being at home with your children and “not contributing to the economy”.

Now that you mention it, I remember reading a thread on a well known news site some time ago about childcare (or rather the lack thereof). I remember how shocked I was at how critical women who had chosen to stay home with their children were of other women who were working and bringing up children at the same time. Apparently, women with children who worked were simply Bad People who weren’t fit to be parents. And if they dared mention they wanted or even worse said they loved their career…the Big Guns were poised to take aim. It was bizarre.

Even the men had to remark that some of the excahnge was unhelpful… why couldn’t people just be accepting and supporting of other’s choices, even though they may be different? So much for supportive women. As you say, they seem to find it impossible to countenance anyone living in way that isn’t in accordance with their philosophy. How very sad.

“if you tell people, in essence, that important milestones in their lives are unimportant and uninteresting to you, yeah, they will take it personally. It’s one thing to avoid baby showers because you don’t really know the expectant parents well. But would you really tell a friend “You know, cake and presents don’t interest me. I don’t want to come celebrate your birthday. Why are you taking this personally?”

Yes.

“Actually, it does.”

Actually - it does not.

“I’d bet money that an awful lot of the rude, intrusive parents you meet were at one point rude, intrusive childfree people.”

There’s a sucker born every minute.

They have an ideal that neither you nor I fit into. Naturally, it’s annoying, just thought I’d share that the rest of us are often putting up with the same revolting people, whose philosophy seems to be: “How dare you live your life other than according to my plan.”

But as for people always asking about children — that’s easy, it’s more interesting and usually safer than asking about what they do for a living. It’s just an easy way to make conversation. My second favorite topic is their upcoming or most recent vacation and/or holiday plans.

Er, if you tell people, in essence, that important milestones in their lives are unimportant and uninteresting to you, yeah, they will take it personally. It’s one thing to avoid baby showers because you don’t really know the expectant parents well. But would you really tell a friend “You know, cake and presents don’t interest me. I don’t want to come celebrate your birthday. Why are you taking this personally?”

Actually, it has nothing to do with how you’re “telling people about it”.

Actually, it does. Of course there are rude people who feel it is their business to tell everyone else how to live their lives, and there’s nothing at all you can say to them other than to take a hike. But do you really see no difference between telling a parent “I’m childfree” or “I don’t want to be a parent” vs. “I’m too smart to be a breeder, thanks” or “Good grief, the world is overpopulated enough.”

I’d bet money that an awful lot of the rude, intrusive parents you meet were at one point rude, intrusive childfree people. You don’t become an asshole by giving birth, and you don’t stop becoming an asshole by giving birth, either.

I have avoided this. My response to people who ask why I am not married with children is always that I am taking care of my elderly parents. It turns out that this an acceptable alternative. As long as “I” as a female are considered to be doing work, unpaid, that is nurturing in some fashion, I am an acceptable woman. Just telling folks I don’t want kids and never did always got criticism and assurances that I would make a wonderful mother and that that I really needed to have kids. It seems it would make me a better person. But caretaking the elderly is almost as good.

And oddly enough, it is women who try and make me feel bad for not having kids. But those same women cut me slack because I take care of my parents.