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	<title>Comments on: The Wind that Shakes the Barley</title>
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	<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/</link>
	<description>Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: perianwyr</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-204709</link>
		<dc:creator>perianwyr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 00:36:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-204709</guid>
		<description>and of course, this agreement included military support from the British to suppress the more radical elements of the Irish resistance... it's easy to understand why people accuse Michael Collins of selling out when you think about the artillery that the British shipped him.

Just saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and of course, this agreement included military support from the British to suppress the more radical elements of the Irish resistance&#8230; it&#8217;s easy to understand why people accuse Michael Collins of selling out when you think about the artillery that the British shipped him.</p>
<p>Just saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Maura</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-204696</link>
		<dc:creator>Maura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 00:01:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-204696</guid>
		<description>Have you seen Michael Collins, the movie?  It might make you feel differently with your blithe assertion that the Irish nationalist movement was "sold out" by its leaders.  Incremental progress is progress, and the treaty was far more than incremental -- it was a huge leap forward for full Irish independence.  If DeValera had not selfishly held out for the "perfect" (rather than the "good"), the entire country would not have been plunged into a bloody civil war, leaving the people with no will to move forward and fight for full inclusion of the other six counties.

Sinn Fein is still working, peacfully - through political  means - for a socialist republic for all of Ireland.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you seen Michael Collins, the movie?  It might make you feel differently with your blithe assertion that the Irish nationalist movement was &#8220;sold out&#8221; by its leaders.  Incremental progress is progress, and the treaty was far more than incremental &#8212; it was a huge leap forward for full Irish independence.  If DeValera had not selfishly held out for the &#8220;perfect&#8221; (rather than the &#8220;good&#8221;), the entire country would not have been plunged into a bloody civil war, leaving the people with no will to move forward and fight for full inclusion of the other six counties.</p>
<p>Sinn Fein is still working, peacfully - through political  means - for a socialist republic for all of Ireland.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Lionheart</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-204202</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Lionheart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-204202</guid>
		<description>It's amusing that that definition of the Mo Movie Measure explains how it's a misnomer.  Wikipedia is calling this the &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bechdel_Test" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"&gt;Bechdel Test&lt;/a&gt;. (I prefer Bechdel Benchmark.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s amusing that that definition of the Mo Movie Measure explains how it&#8217;s a misnomer.  Wikipedia is calling this the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bechdel_Test" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">Bechdel Test</a>. (I prefer Bechdel Benchmark.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mel</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-203900</link>
		<dc:creator>Mel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Nov 2006 19:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-203900</guid>
		<description>Wasn't the court scene fascinating? I thought the meeting about the Treaty was also. Having read oodles of reviews of this film, it's very telling about a critic's politics given what s/he comments about these two scenes. Some reviewers find them deadly boring but other find them galvanizing and among the best things about the movie.

It's true, we don't know why Sinead believes what she believes. But we don't know why Teddy does either. Only Damien and Dan really get backstory for their beliefs, Dan even more so than Damien.

And yes, the movie really does make you ponder what you would do in these situations, even though there's no way to know for sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wasn&#8217;t the court scene fascinating? I thought the meeting about the Treaty was also. Having read oodles of reviews of this film, it&#8217;s very telling about a critic&#8217;s politics given what s/he comments about these two scenes. Some reviewers find them deadly boring but other find them galvanizing and among the best things about the movie.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true, we don&#8217;t know why Sinead believes what she believes. But we don&#8217;t know why Teddy does either. Only Damien and Dan really get backstory for their beliefs, Dan even more so than Damien.</p>
<p>And yes, the movie really does make you ponder what you would do in these situations, even though there&#8217;s no way to know for sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-203858</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Nov 2006 13:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-203858</guid>
		<description>A guerilla movement is often the most brutal of movements.  Guerilla's operate often in plain clothes and fall under the treatment of spies in the rules of war.  Contrary to popular belief Spies do not have any guarentees for treatment  upon capture.  Often they are tortured then shot with even the side who the spy represents just counting it as a loss and moving on.  A guerilla movement has even a harder time enforcing discipline in it's own ranks.  The Modern IRA (and old version as well)  Have brutal methods for dealing with mistakes and even more brutal methods for dealing with treachery regardless of the circumstances.  This is where people who back causes from a distance would not have the stomach for what their support nessecitates at the sharp end.  If banning brutality and inhumanity were a requirement of a movement very few movements would ever succeed.

      Having personally met with members of several guerilla type movements when they didn't have thier "meet the public" face on, I will tell you they are people who have lost most of what you would call humanity.  They are scary, ruthless people.   Dig deep into most any resistance movement and you can verify these observations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A guerilla movement is often the most brutal of movements.  Guerilla&#8217;s operate often in plain clothes and fall under the treatment of spies in the rules of war.  Contrary to popular belief Spies do not have any guarentees for treatment  upon capture.  Often they are tortured then shot with even the side who the spy represents just counting it as a loss and moving on.  A guerilla movement has even a harder time enforcing discipline in it&#8217;s own ranks.  The Modern IRA (and old version as well)  Have brutal methods for dealing with mistakes and even more brutal methods for dealing with treachery regardless of the circumstances.  This is where people who back causes from a distance would not have the stomach for what their support nessecitates at the sharp end.  If banning brutality and inhumanity were a requirement of a movement very few movements would ever succeed.</p>
<p>      Having personally met with members of several guerilla type movements when they didn&#8217;t have thier &#8220;meet the public&#8221; face on, I will tell you they are people who have lost most of what you would call humanity.  They are scary, ruthless people.   Dig deep into most any resistance movement and you can verify these observations.</p>
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		<title>By: Maia</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-203851</link>
		<dc:creator>Maia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-203851</guid>
		<description>That court scene was one of my favourites as well.  That's why I would have had no problem with the portrayal of women if Sinnead and Damien hadn't got together.  I think it would have been a strong way of showing that women were doing their own activities.  It's just the relationship

I see your argument that none of the characters were particularly strongly written.  I think Dan was .  But the other main characters all had a particular set of beliefs and we knew at least a little about why they felt that way.  We never got the same from Sinnead.

 I agree with your last point - I don't think the movie was presenting the shooting as the right thing to do.  I didn't mean to imply that I did.  More that the movie made me think about where my lines were.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That court scene was one of my favourites as well.  That&#8217;s why I would have had no problem with the portrayal of women if Sinnead and Damien hadn&#8217;t got together.  I think it would have been a strong way of showing that women were doing their own activities.  It&#8217;s just the relationship</p>
<p>I see your argument that none of the characters were particularly strongly written.  I think Dan was .  But the other main characters all had a particular set of beliefs and we knew at least a little about why they felt that way.  We never got the same from Sinnead.</p>
<p> I agree with your last point - I don&#8217;t think the movie was presenting the shooting as the right thing to do.  I didn&#8217;t mean to imply that I did.  More that the movie made me think about where my lines were.</p>
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		<title>By: Mel</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-203814</link>
		<dc:creator>Mel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Nov 2006 08:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/18/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-203814</guid>
		<description>Very nice essay. Three areas of slight disagreement:

1. While I agree with your overall insights about the sexism in the film, I don't think it's quite as simple as you put it. While Sinead is the only principal character who's a woman, she is not the only woman shown involved in the resistance. One of my favorite scenes involves women leaders, and paradoxically, exposes the sexism among some of the IRA men. It's a scene where a female judge makes a ruling against an Irish landlord in favor of a poor woman tenant, and Teddy goes outside the authority of the court, where women are shown to have a stronger role than in the army, to flout the ruling and make a backroom boys' deal with the landlord to insure that he'll keep funding their arms purchases. Women speak out in other contexts too, but overall, it's not enough.

2. I agree that Sinead's part is a bit underwritten. But I also think Teddy's part was underwritten. Why is he more moderate than his brother, especially after being tortured? We need more information. I would have even liked more development of Damien, who gets the spotlight most, though this is an ensemble piece through and through. I think the character development overall is not strong enough, and that's one reason why this amazingly realistic, truly disturbing movie still doesn't pack the emotional wallop in the end that it might have.

3. I took Damien's decision re his shooting of Chris and his impending execution differently than you did. I think that Damien felt he didn't deserve an easy out given the crime he had committed. I think he saw the act as wrong, though the situation he was put in when he was ordered to execute Chris was complex. And I think that he felt that if he gave up his ideals now that his own life was on the line, it would make what he did even worse and would let him off the hook for that terrible act. He stubbornly chooses to go to his own death partially out of political idealism, but also out of deep guilt. He chooses extreme punishment, putting himself under the same rules that Chris had to deal with, even though he could have chosen to live. You could say that Damien is choosing justice for Chris by choosing to accept the death penalty for himself. I don't think the execution of Chris was presented as the right thing to do. This movie has complex, conflicted things to say about violence, war and how to fight for freedom -- there are no easy answers, and that's why, despite my criticisms of it, I think it's a great film. It's incredibly thought-provoking. My friend and I discussed so many angles of what was right and who was right for a long time afterwards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very nice essay. Three areas of slight disagreement:</p>
<p>1. While I agree with your overall insights about the sexism in the film, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s quite as simple as you put it. While Sinead is the only principal character who&#8217;s a woman, she is not the only woman shown involved in the resistance. One of my favorite scenes involves women leaders, and paradoxically, exposes the sexism among some of the IRA men. It&#8217;s a scene where a female judge makes a ruling against an Irish landlord in favor of a poor woman tenant, and Teddy goes outside the authority of the court, where women are shown to have a stronger role than in the army, to flout the ruling and make a backroom boys&#8217; deal with the landlord to insure that he&#8217;ll keep funding their arms purchases. Women speak out in other contexts too, but overall, it&#8217;s not enough.</p>
<p>2. I agree that Sinead&#8217;s part is a bit underwritten. But I also think Teddy&#8217;s part was underwritten. Why is he more moderate than his brother, especially after being tortured? We need more information. I would have even liked more development of Damien, who gets the spotlight most, though this is an ensemble piece through and through. I think the character development overall is not strong enough, and that&#8217;s one reason why this amazingly realistic, truly disturbing movie still doesn&#8217;t pack the emotional wallop in the end that it might have.</p>
<p>3. I took Damien&#8217;s decision re his shooting of Chris and his impending execution differently than you did. I think that Damien felt he didn&#8217;t deserve an easy out given the crime he had committed. I think he saw the act as wrong, though the situation he was put in when he was ordered to execute Chris was complex. And I think that he felt that if he gave up his ideals now that his own life was on the line, it would make what he did even worse and would let him off the hook for that terrible act. He stubbornly chooses to go to his own death partially out of political idealism, but also out of deep guilt. He chooses extreme punishment, putting himself under the same rules that Chris had to deal with, even though he could have chosen to live. You could say that Damien is choosing justice for Chris by choosing to accept the death penalty for himself. I don&#8217;t think the execution of Chris was presented as the right thing to do. This movie has complex, conflicted things to say about violence, war and how to fight for freedom &#8212; there are no easy answers, and that&#8217;s why, despite my criticisms of it, I think it&#8217;s a great film. It&#8217;s incredibly thought-provoking. My friend and I discussed so many angles of what was right and who was right for a long time afterwards.</p>
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