Yet Another Example Of Sexist Asshatry At The Daily Kos
| April 12th, 2007Frankly, I have nothing to say about the latest example of Kos being an idiot that others haven’t already said better; others like Shakespeare’s Sister, Echidne, Feministing, Aimai, Majikthise, and I’m sure many others. (Updated to add: Such as Kip, and Chris, and Stephen.) (And Pandagon).
But I’ll say it anyway:
1) One can think that a “blogger code of ethics” is a stupid idea without thinking that death threats are no big deal.
2) There is no reason to accept that anyone should just have to put up with death threats as the cost of stating an opinion in public. Talk about lowered expectations! What next — should voters who are harassed at the voting site not complain, since they should have expected that sort of abuse?
3) It’s true that no blogger code of ethics will solve the problem of anonymous online idiots making threats.
But it’s also true that Kos’ view, if taken seriously, would actually make the problem worse. The only means most of us have of fighting back against these sort of attacks is to publicly call out the threat-makers. If people have to worry that fighting back will lead to one of the world’s most popular bloggers calling them an idiot in public, then that’ll be one more reason to just let it pass. And the standards of discourse on the internet, already disgustingly low, will be driven even lower.
As it happens, the threats against Kathy Sierra came in part on a online discussion board; in an environment like that, group social norms make a difference. If virtually everyone responded to posts that imply violence by saying “that’s disgusting! What’s wrong with you?,” threats like that won’t disappear entirely — but they will become less common. Contrariwise, if everyone responds to these sort of controversies the way Kos has here, by in effect calling people who object to such threats wimps and idiots, that will have the effect of encouraging threats.
4) Let’s not forget, it seems clear that female bloggers have to deal with more of this crap than male bloggers.
April 12th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
[...] Zuzu at Feministe Jessica at Feministing Belledame at Fetch Me My Axe Echnide of the Snakes Mark at Norwegienty Jill at Brilliant at Breakfast Bitch PhD Chris at Creek Running North Kip at Long Story, Short Pier Bruce at Crablaw Melissa at Shakesville Jeff at Blog of the Moderate Left Interrobang Stephen at The Thinkery Amp at Alas, A Blog [...]
This comment was written by Wampum: Just for the record....Report this comment to the moderators
April 12th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
I’m waiting - no, dying is more accurate - I’m dying for some irony-deficient asshat to give me some shit over the horribly violently-minded post I put up today.
This comment was written by defenestrated.Report this comment to the moderators
April 12th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
about harassment or violence against them and mocking them for taking these threats seriously is just such a sexist cliché. I think the progressive blogosphere deserves better. Zuzu has the short and snappy version. Also see Shakes, Bitch PhD, Ampersand and Echidne.
This comment was written by Feministing.Report this comment to the moderators
April 12th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
[...] Zuzu, Jessica, Belledame, Amp, BitchPhd, Shakes , Amanda, Chris and others call Kos out on more of his misogynistic shit. George Orwell turns in his grave. [...]
This comment was written by Slant Truth » How to Celebrate Freedom of Speech–Be a Misogynist.Report this comment to the moderators
April 12th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
You should read that study. I don’t believe it shows what it is being claimed to show.
The study has many scientific flaws dealing with how the data was collected. But most importantly, it wasn’t a study to compare how men and women are treated online. It was a study to see if irc channels are risky places in terms of computer security.
In the study, the authors never defined what sexual harassment was, and never defined what threats were. They never described how either of these were measured. They never tested for interrater reliability. At least, none of this was ever discussed in their paper.
Jessica Valenti (and many other newspapers) report the figure is 25 times as bad for women as for men. And that women got 163 harassing communications per day. But those numbers were taken from different experiments within the study.
First, the study examined #irc chat rooms. Chat rooms with no moderation (IIRC) and with no authentication. Chat rooms named #teen and #allnightcafe.
The chatroom named #teen (look, I don’t think an unmoderated, unauthenticated chatroom called #teen has any business of even existing) was studied by using “silent bots” that is, bots that did nothing. Bots with female names were 25 times more likely than bots with male names to get harassing communications, but again, the terms sexual harassment and threats was never defined.
Moving from that study, the experimenters placed real humans in a chatroom called #allnightcafe. In that study, female names got 163 harrasing communiques while male names got 27. That is a ratio of 6 to 1, not 25 to 1. But again, the terms for sexual harassment and threats was never defined.
Sexual harassment was defined only as “sexually explicit”.
But I ask you. In an unmoderated, unauthenticated chatroom called #allnightcafe, what do you think the typical user is looking for?
(BTW, I have never visited #teen or #allnightcafe, I honestly don’t know what happens in those unmoderated, unauthenticated chatrooms. Also, I read the study about a week ago, I may have forgotten some of the details.)
In such an environment, is all sexually explicit communications sexual harassment?
I think what the study found was that in a bar, late at night, more men try to pickup women than women that try to pickup men.
I think that’s what it found.
Some of the data collection problems are that the data collections were not all done at the same time. They would collect data for a week at a time. But this does not take into account seasonal events or the like. So we don’t know if the responses were due to something in the news, or arrival at school, or vacation, or graduation, or anything.
So I don’t think the study shows what it is purported to show.
This comment was written by jerry.Report this comment to the moderators
April 12th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
BTW, the conclusion of the study concluded nothing about abuse of men vs. women. It used the difference between male and female behavior to indicate the attackers were humans and not bots. Given how that conclusion stems from an assumption made beforehand that males and females would be treated differently, I don’t think the study has any ability to make any conclusions about how males and females would be treated. And they don’t.
The conclusion of the study was that #irc is actually a low risk environment for computer security problems.
Again, apples and oranges comparisons were made, and they studied #irc unathenticated, unmoderated chatrooms, and they studied nothing about the blogosphere.
This comment was written by jerry.Report this comment to the moderators
April 13th, 2007 at 6:44 am
[...] 1 Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » Yet Another Example Of Sexist Asshatry At The Daily Kos Pingback on Apr 12th, 2007 at 8:33 pm [...]
This comment was written by In order to argue effectively against the blogger code of conduct, it’s imperative to say that bitches are crazy at Pandagon.Report this comment to the moderators
April 13th, 2007 at 7:57 am
In an unmoderated, unauthenticated chatroom called #allnightcafe, what do you think the typical user is looking for?
Coffee? Chat?
If you don’t think women get sexually harrassed on (mainstream) IRC all the time, try using bash.org’s random function. You’ll find many instances of undisputable sexism (here’s one), racism, anti-semitism, and homophobia.
You won’t find equivalent anti-male comments (I clicked random, and got no anti-male comments, but about a dozen that fit into one of the above-listed categories).
A few years ago, I was an operator on a fairly well-behaved IRC network. There was one person who was persistently abusive to women. I did not do enough to stop him then, and I feel bad about it. We did eventually kick him off — ostensibly for other reasons, but in reality because he was jerk. But by then, he had already driven away at least one female member of the channel.
I guess there’s no reason to post this. If you really can’t see the sexism of mainstream IRC, the problem isn’t that you haven’t read the right study — it’s that you’ve never considered what women experience.
This comment was written by novalis.Report this comment to the moderators
April 13th, 2007 at 10:27 am
Is it just me? Seems like IRC chat is very different than blogs — I mean completely and totally different. The topic here (again just to me) is about a blogger being attacked and threatened.
This comment was written by Trinifar.Report this comment to the moderators
April 13th, 2007 at 11:13 am
But I ask you. In an unmoderated, unauthenticated chatroom called #allnightcafe, what do you think the typical user is looking for?
“What did you expect would happen to you, if you walked into a place like that? And what were you wearing, anyway? You were practically asking for it.”
This comment was written by mythago.Report this comment to the moderators
April 13th, 2007 at 11:35 am
[...] 1. Amp points out that pretty much every white blogger has spoken out against the death threats that (white) Sierra received. [...]
This comment was written by Women of Color Blog » Here’s what I’m wondering.Report this comment to the moderators
April 13th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
But for women to be cautious isn’t paranoid or overreacting, considering that one 1998 goverment study said that 18% of U.S. women have faced rape or attempted rape and 8% have been stalked). For more about Kos’ comments, see these comments here and here. technorati tags: takebackthetech stopcyberbullying
This comment was written by No Attention.Report this comment to the moderators
April 14th, 2007 at 1:12 am
Brilliant at Breakfast Bitch PhD Chris at Creek Running North Kip at Long Story, Short Pier Bruce at Crablaw Melissa at Shakesville Jeff at Blog of the Moderate Left Interrobang Stephen at The Thinkery Amp at Alas, A Blog Amanda at Pandagon Lindsey at Majikthise Dan at Fitness for the Occasion Nezua at The Unapologetic Mexican My dear friend, Natasha, at Pacific Views (N. and I have a history of dealing with this kind of cyber-crap.)
This comment was written by GOTV.Report this comment to the moderators
April 14th, 2007 at 8:29 am
In addition to my “family” blog, I share a small political blog with two other great-grandmothers. I focus on feminist, gay, children’s and civil rights issues for the most part. My partners cover everything else.
I don’t know if female bloggers are more subject to attack; I do know that we’ve received comments from the right wingers saying they wish we’d all die.
Oh, and that the three of us are liars.
Not exactly death threats but not something to make my day.
I’m not sure if the link will work.
Ann (aka granny)
This comment was written by ann adams.Is America Burning
Report this comment to the moderators
April 14th, 2007 at 8:53 am
Bitch PhD Chris at Creek Running North and Pandagon Kip at Long Story, Short Pier Bruce at Crablaw Melissa at Shakesville Jeff at Blog of the Moderate Left Interrobang Stephen at The Thinkery Amp at Alas, A Blog Amanda at Pandagon Lindsey at Majikthise Dan at Fitness for the Occasion Nezua at The Unapologetic Mexican My dear friend, Natasha, at Pacific Views (N. and I have a history of dealing with this kind of cyber-crap.)
This comment was written by IntelligentaIndigena.Report this comment to the moderators
April 14th, 2007 at 9:33 am
[...] Trifecta at New PairODimes Steven D at Booman Tribune Sheelzebub at Pinko Feminist Hellcat Myrna at Reno and Its Discontents twoluvcats at a wealth of semi-useless information! Scott at Lawyers, Guns and Money PZ atPharyngula skippy the bush kangaroo Mickle at The True Confessions of an Hourly Bookseller WebWeaver’s World Renee at the Independent Bloggers’ Alliance (Renee also provides links to politicians and activists who post on dKos.) // [...]
This comment was written by Reno and Its Discontents»Blog Archive » Its Just Wrong.Report this comment to the moderators
April 15th, 2007 at 10:25 am
Bitch PhD Chris at Creek Running North and Pandagon Kip at Long Story, Short Pier Bruce at Crablaw Melissa at Shakesville Jeff at Blog of the Moderate Left Interrobang Stephen at The Thinkery Amp at Alas, A Blog Amanda at Pandagon Lindsey at Majikthise Dan at Fitness for the Occasion Nezua at The Unapologetic Mexican My dear friend, Natasha, at Pacific Views (N. and I have a history of dealing with this kind of cyber-crap.)
This comment was written by Booman Tribune ~ A Progressive Community.Report this comment to the moderators
April 15th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
Bitch PhD Chris at Creek Running North and Pandagon Kip at Long Story, Short Pier Bruce at Crablaw Melissa at Shakesville Jeff at Blog of the Moderate Left Interrobang Stephen at The Thinkery Amp at Alas, A Blog Amanda at Pandagon Lindsey at Majikthise Dan at Fitness for the Occasion Nezua at The Unapologetic Mexican My dear friend, Natasha, at Pacific Views (N. and I have a history of dealing with this kind of cyber-crap.)
This comment was written by My Left Wing :: Open Letter to All A-List Bloggers Not Named Markos Moulitsas.Report this comment to the moderators
April 15th, 2007 at 11:31 pm
[...] brownfemipower at Woman of Color Blog Zuzu at Feministe Jessica at Feministing Belledame at Fetch Me My Axe Echnide of the Snakes Mark at Norwegienty Jill at Brilliant at Breakfast Bitch PhD Chris at Creek Running North and Pandagon Kip at Long Story, Short Pier Bruce at Crablaw Melissa at Shakesville Jeff at Blog of the Moderate Left Interrobang Stephen at The Thinkery Amp at Alas, A Blog Amanda at Pandagon Lindsey at Majikthise Dan at Fitness for the Occasion Nezua at The Unapologetic Mexican My dear friend, Natasha, at Pacific Views (N. and I have a history of dealing with this kind of cyber-crap.) Kevin at Slant Truth Aaron at Faithfully Liberal Ntodd at Dohiyi Mir Trifecta at New PairODimes Steven D at Booman Tribune Sheelzebub at Pinko Feminist Hellcat Myra at Reno and Its Discontents twoluvcats at a wealth of semi-useless information! Scott at Lawyers, Guns and Money PZ at Pharyngula skippy the bush kangaroo Mickle at The True Confessions of an Hourly Bookseller WebWeaver’s World Renee at the Independent Bloggers’ Alliance (Renee also provides links to politicians and activists who post on dKos.] Terrance at The Republic of T. [...]
This comment was written by Daily Kos: Kos, Sexism, the Lefty Blogosphere and The Duty to Believe.Report this comment to the moderators
April 16th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
UPDATE: Defenestrated has an excellent post here about rape, fear, victim-blaming/women’s ’self-protective’ behavior or lack thereof, and a compendium of comments collected from the sphere.ANOTHER UPDATE: Alas, A Blog on Yet Another Example of Sexist Asshatry at The Daily Kos
This comment was written by theriomorph.Report this comment to the moderators
April 17th, 2007 at 11:19 am
[...] People who have spoken out brownfemipower at Woman of Color Blog Zuzu at Feministe Jessica at Feministing Belledame at Fetch Me My Axe Echnide of the Snakes Mark at Norwegienty Jill at Brilliant at Breakfast Bitch PhD Chris at Creek Running North and Pandagon Kip at Long Story, Short Pier Bruce at Crablaw Melissa at Shakesville Jeff at Blog of the Moderate Left Interrobang Stephen at The Thinkery Amp at Alas, A Blog Amanda at Pandagon Lindsey at Majikthise Dan at Fitness for the Occasion Nezua at The Unapologetic Mexican Natasha, at Pacific Views Kevin at Slant Truth Aaron at Faithfully Liberal Ntodd at Dohiyi Mir Trifecta at New PairODimes Steven D at Booman Tribune Sheelzebub at Pinko Feminist Hellcat Myra at Reno and Its Discontents twoluvcats at a wealth of semi-useless information! Scott at Lawyers, Guns and Money PZ at Pharyngula skippy the bush kangaroo Mickle at The True Confessions of an Hourly Bookseller WebWeaver’s World Renee at the Independent Bloggers’ Alliance Terrance at The Republic of T Vox Aemeliae [...]
This comment was written by Kos | ¡Para Justicia y Libertad!.Report this comment to the moderators
April 19th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
Bitch PhD Chris at Creek Running North and Pandagon Kip at Long Story, Short Pier Bruce at Crablaw Melissa at Shakesville Jeff at Blog of the Moderate Left Interrobang Stephen at The Thinkery Amp at Alas, A Blog Amanda at Pandagon Lindsey at Majikthise Dan at Fitness for the Occasion Nezua at The Unapologetic Mexican Natasha, at Pacific Views Kevin at Slant Truth Aaron at Faithfully Liberal Ntodd at Dohiyi Mir
This comment was written by CRIMES AND CORRUPTIONS OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER NEWS.Report this comment to the moderators
May 4th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
[...] coordinated statement and the discussions of Kos’ response by BitchPhD, Jessica, Amanda, Amp, Nezua and the many others linked to from XicanoPwr’s The Word According to Kos. And if you [...]
This comment was written by Liminal states » Allies in the blogosphere: suggestions and reading.Report this comment to the moderators