However, since Daran did kind of ask for it, I’m not certain that my usual response applies here.

I am certain, however, that this thread has simply ceased being useful. I’m closing it. I’m planning a follow-up post, in a few days or a week or perhaps not until I get back from my trip to New York; I think a cooling-off period might do the discussion some good.

here
http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/

and here

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu7NdeXhGlsIAfFpXNyoA?p=asperger%27s+support+group&fr=yfp-t-472

Its amazing what you can find when you bother to get off your ass and look instead of expecting someone else to do it. Thats from a 2 minute search. Wow. What an effort THAT took.

So what are my options if I can’t even get to the point of a date? Are there evening classes I could go to? You suggest Dear Abby, but do you really think dating is something you can learn through a correspondance course?

So what you’re seriously suggesting is that IN ADDITION TO working to keep myself and every other woman from becoming a rape victim, getting fucking screwed by employers who pay is less, getting the government the fuck out of my pussy, end wife beating, sexual assualt, sexual harrassment, being viewed as sexbots, being treated as subhuman baby ovens, getting murdered left and fucking right among other things, what youre saying is ON TOP OF ALL THAT, I should stop and help you because you cant get a date.

Women are murdered and raped, globally on a daily basis, but DARAN cant get a fucking date. Well watch as the world grinds to a fucking halt, because surely there cant be anything more fucking important.

This is the only time I will act like your mother.

here

http://www.wespsych.com/shyness.html

here

http://www.planetpsych.com/zPsychology_101/overcomingshyness.htm

here

http://www.more-selfesteem.com/overcoming_shyness_tips.htm

here

http://www.hypnosisdownloads.com/downloads/self_improvement/overcoming_shyness.html?735

here

http://careerplanning.about.com/cs/personalissues/a/shyness_2.htm

here

http://www.reneegilbert.com/shyness.htm

here

http://www.coolnurse.com/shyness.htm

here

http://members.aol.com/cybernettr/shysite/overcome.html

here

http://www.counseling.caltech.edu/articles/shyness.html

I agree feminists aren’t here for that. What I want from feminists is for them to stop denying that I have a problem, and to stop calling me an abuser merely for saying that I do.

I didnt say feminists. I flat the fuck out said women.

All of us

Period.

And who the fuck said you didnt have a problem?

And yeah, its pretty fucking abusive (not to mention fucking manipulative on the scale of fucking astounding) to demand someone other than YOU or people who VOLUNTEER help you with your social issues when there ARE IN FACT people DYING. Its fucking pathetic to whine when they dont treat you like a fucking infant.

You want more people to like you? Stop being a self absorbed asshole. Try it. You might be surprised. I just gave you a shitload of links. There are such things as fucking phone books. You dont even know of a class can help you, thats how much youve bothered to help yourself.

No one has said you dont have a problem. What has been said is that there are MORE IMPORTANT PROBLEMS. And if you dont mind, Id like to deal with the ones that will ya know, get me killed thank you very much. last I checked, no one fell down dead because shyness beat them to death.

Hell, go the easy route and take a fucking pill. If I could take a pill that would repel rapists, Id be eating those bastards like candy.

A significant number of comments here have not denied that you and others have problems; they’ve merely denied that feminism is to blame for the problems experienced by shy men, or that it makes sense to go to a feminist site and make demands like “So what are my options if I can’t even get to the point of a date? Are there evening classes I could go to?,” as if solving men’s serious shyness problems is feminism’s job.

Many comments here have not suggested that the FC folks are abusers (I know I’ve never made any such suggestion).

[Edited to add a bit]

People here have addressed them. Numerous times. Feminism advocates treating women with respect. If shy men are intimidated by that, then the fault lies somewhere within themselves. And its their fault to fix. It’s not complicated. Treat people like PEOPLE. If you’re shy, work on it with friends or therapy or any of the numerous options out there.

What options, specifically, are there for “working on” achieving sexual intimacy with women? “Working on it with friends”, surely, is what teenage dating is all about.

So what are my options if I can’t even get to the point of a date? Are there evening classes I could go to? You suggest Dear Abby, but do you really think dating is something you can learn through a correspondance course?

Random women arent your guinnea pigs. Feminists aren’t here to help your social life, its your life you make it work.

I agree feminists aren’t here for that. What I want from feminists is for them to stop denying that I have a problem, and to stop calling me an abuser merely for saying that I do.

Tell us how it has done this and we”re more likely to take you seriously.

In my particular case? Mostly I was just being sarcastic and flippant,…

I realise that. We, however are not.

…but I probably really could blame the partriarchy or maybe other forms of privilege for my adolescent inability to form relationships with people of the opposite sex. Or the same sex, for that matter. But it wasn’t about thinking that sex was bad or dirty or even fear of pregnancy or STDs or even, entirely, shyness and social awkwardness. No, the basic problem was that I went to a private high school* with mostly rich kids and frankly the boys were all boring jerks who weren’t worth having a conversation with muchless having sex with.

I’m sorry you had the difficulties you did, whatever the reasons.

In my case, my problem in part was not really a feeling that sex per se was bad, but that I was bad for desiring sexual intimacy with a woman. Lovely women were all around, but I was bad for desiring intimacy with them, and simultaneous less than a man for not being able to achieve intimacy with them.

Now let’s look at the feminist response in this thread.

Firstly, there’s an insistance on framing the problem as “getting laid”, i.e., meaningless selfish sex. Some commenters on our blog framed it that way, but not Tom, Hugh, or myself.

Secondly, we “can’t handle being told that you can’t just trample over whoever you want to satisfy your urges“. The implication is that this is what we want to do. In other words, we’re would-be abusers.

Thirdly, (OK, this isn’t from this thread, but still…) it isn’t a real problem. Thanks Dianne, It’s really good to know that when I was trying to kill myself with rat poison, it was because I didn’t have a real problem.

In summary, the feminist message I get is: “You’re bad for wanting sexual intimacy with women”, the very same toxic idea that I struggled for so many years to reject.

Ok, so say you. No argument from me, I promise you.

“So why do you have a problem?“

Correction: HAD a problem. At my age I no longer think about it.

Well, that’s just about it for me. don’t think I have anything further to add.

Thanks to all for their replies. This has been a good discussion and am very glad to have been a part of it.

Blessings to all.

feminism can inhibit shy, socially awkward, men who are sympathetic to feminism from engaging in intimate relationships with women.

Thanks for the sympathy, here’s your cookie. Feel better know?

I’m going back to lurking.

:P

—Myca

In my particular case? Mostly I was just being sarcastic and flippant, but I probably really could blame the partriarchy or maybe other forms of privilege for my adolescent inability to form relationships with people of the opposite sex. Or the same sex, for that matter. But it wasn’t about thinking that sex was bad or dirty or even fear of pregnancy or STDs or even, entirely, shyness and social awkwardness. No, the basic problem was that I went to a private high school* with mostly rich kids and frankly the boys were all boring jerks who weren’t worth having a conversation with muchless having sex with.

*I have an excuse. My older sister went to the local public HS and had a creationist for a biology teacher. I bailed.

Hugh’s position is that feminism can inhibit shy, socially awkward, men who are symathetic to feminism from engaging in intimate relationships with women. Yes, intimacy includes sex, but it’s not just about “getting laid”.

Daran - the problem is still that he’s blaming feminism for this, as if the problem were that he cared whether he harmed women rather than that he was mistaken about sexual interest being inherently harmful. Just because someone’s “sympathetic to feminism” doesn’t mean that they’re free of internalized patriarchy.

If you want allies in human rights, feminists are the people to see

If you want advice on how to meet women and overcome shyness, write Dear Abby. She gets paid to do it.

So if it’s feminism’s fault that shy, socially awkward men can’t get laid whose fault is it that I couldn’t get laid as a shy, socially awkard and short female teenager? Can I blame the patriarchy?

I have yet to say anyone saying that it is feminism’s fault that shy, socially awkward men can’t get laid; This is the Jason Voorhees of Straw Men. It just will not die.

Hugh’s position is that feminism can inhibit shy, socially awkward, men who are symathetic to feminism from engaging in intimate relationships with women. Yes, intimacy includes sex, but it’s not just about “getting laid”.

Moreover, he’s articulated reasons for this. Why don’t you address them?

And yes, you can blame the patriarchy if you like for your failure to get laid, but unless you give your reasons, we’re unlikely to be convinced. Tell us how it has done this and we”re more likely to take you seriously.

What we won’t do is dismiss your feelings, denounce you as ‘entitled’, or suggest that you want to commit abuse and rape.

It seems to me that a) everyone must know this, having seen it in an advice column at some point; b) it’s reasonable advice (maybe minus the math test) for shy and lovelorn people of any age; c) following it offends no one (as long as you practice basic hygiene and don’t follow people around and like that).

And d) it doesn’t work.

YES, it is the fault of the anti-sex, body-phobic, purity-obsessed gender-role-obsessed, heteronormative, monogamy-obsessed, kink-hating, puritanical patriarchy that is to blame for you not getting laid. It’s also to blame for shy young men not getting laid. Anything that tells us that sex is dirty and wrong and evil and ‘good girls don’t’ and that the job of men is to pursue and that there is somehow virtue in feeling shitty about your body and your desires is to blame!

Word.

What’s going on in the minds of the shy young men who are afraid to express any desire for women is a toxic combination of (a) the feminist idea that women should be able to choose whether they want sex or not; and (b) the patriarchal idea that sex is harmful, shameful, and degrading, and something that women would never want. (I use the term “Just Say No Means No” to describe it.)

I just don’t get why so many people think that it’s the feminist idea that’s the problem there.

So if it’s feminism’s fault that shy, socially awkward men can’t get laid whose fault is it that I couldn’t get laid as a shy, socially awkard and short female teenager? Can I blame the patriarchy?

This is a sidetrack and a rant, but:

FUCK, YES!

YES, it is the fault of the anti-sex, body-phobic, purity-obsessed gender-role-obsessed, heteronormitive, monogamy-obsessed, kink-hating, puritanical patriarchy that is to blame for you not getting laid. It’s also to blame for shy young men not getting laid. Anything that tells us that sex is dirty and wrong and evil and ‘good girls don’t’ and that the job of men is to pursue and that there is somehow virtue in feeling shitty about your body and your desires is to blame!

Okay. Rant off.

;-)

—Myca

Stock answer to first question: you can’t make someone like you, but you can show you like them by saying hello when you see them and raising a topic of mutual interest, such as the weather, the horrible math test you just took, or if the bus is ever going to come. If you do this every time you see them, they’ll figure out that you like them, and may or may not like you back. Even if they don’t, you gain practice in approaching people who attract you.

Stock answer to second and third questions: join a club, class or organization doing something that interests you; talk to your fellow students/members about it, or about whatever else comes up (the weather, the bus, etc.).

It seems to me that a) everyone must know this, having seen it in an advice column at some point; b) it’s reasonable advice (maybe minus the math test) for shy and lovelorn people of any age; c) following it offends no one (as long as you practice basic hygiene and don’t follow people around and like that).

No reasonable human being will take umbrage at being addressed with “Nice day, isn’t it?” — she may not want to discuss it because she’s busy or worried about an upcoming math test or just plain not very friendly, but if she’s actually rude, that’s her problem, not yours, move on. Women are human beings, and you talk to them the same way you would to any human being, and you can gauge a woman’s reaction to a friendly remark just as you can that of any human being.

Likewise, if you join a group activity that interests you, you’ll have plenty of people to talk to, and some of them may actually talk back. The key phrase here is “that interests you”: if you’re a science geek and she’s a cheerleader, or vice versa, you probably won’t have much to talk about.

(Btw, if you take up ballet or knitting, you will find yourself surrounded by women. One of these pastimes is much less physically demanding than the other and can be mastered at any age.)

(I know pheeno and others have said most of this already, and I apologize for being repetitive; I just figured I’d give it one more try in different words.)

Being very good friends with several Very Shy Men, I would have to say by observation that getting up close and personal with people to whom one is attracted involves not only expressed consideration, respect, and caring for the other person, but also a willingness to let the other person behind what I call The Wall. IME, The Wall is what most people use to protect their real selves, sort of the inner sanctum for their souls, if you will. Most people have a haha in front of their Walls, so they can let others have access to pieces of themselves, but I think very few shy people have anything between their Walls and the outside world, which might actually be why they are very shy in the first place.

To switch to a real estate analogy, and to address the general tenor of the FCB comments here as I perceive them: you own a War Bride Bungalow near the railroad tracks, and the buyers you want seem to prefer lakeside Colonial homes. You can: 1) work within the existing brokerage system and complain bitterly how unfair it is to the owners of houses that are not lakeside Colonials; or 2) join with other homeowners who are seeking to reform the existing system to make it easier for buyers and sellers to interact in mutually satisfactory ways. Some people on this thread seem to be blaming the Internet for their problems in selling their homes, as opposed to choice 2, which seems to me to be counterintuitive.

Second, let’s put it this way: I have always felt that there is no such thing as a woman who isn’t beautiful. To me, a woman’s beauty does not come from her outward appearance but from her heart and character.

So why do you have a problem? Aren’t there plenty of women out there who, not being conventionally attractive themselves, can’t afford to be too picky about how tall you are or how much money you make?