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	<title>Comments on: Point of View</title>
	<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/</link>
	<description>Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Meep</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300892</link>
		<dc:creator>Meep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 18:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300892</guid>
		<description>I personally think that more people *should* edit Wikipedia. I've been slowly working on making contributions to it's unbelievably bad anthropology section.

Remember - a lot of people who do edit Wikipedia know a lot about computers and obscure pop culture references, including myself, so unless other people come in and edit, it's going to be skewed. That's the great thing - you don't like it? Edit it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally think that more people *should* edit Wikipedia. I&#8217;ve been slowly working on making contributions to it&#8217;s unbelievably bad anthropology section.</p>
<p>Remember - a lot of people who do edit Wikipedia know a lot about computers and obscure pop culture references, including myself, so unless other people come in and edit, it&#8217;s going to be skewed. That&#8217;s the great thing - you don&#8217;t like it? Edit it!</p>
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		<title>By: The Countess</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300857</link>
		<dc:creator>The Countess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 23:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300857</guid>
		<description>My first real exposure to Wikipedia was when I edited the fathers' rights page. The problem was that the page was controversial, and one fathers' rights supporter in particular was turning the page into a soapbox supportive of the movement rather than an NPOV description of it. I didn't have endless hours per day to keep editing the page, so I gave up. At least my criticisms and cites stayed up, providing some balance.  The experience was eye-opening. I'm glad I don't do that stuff anymore.

When I write articles, I've been told by my editors to not use Wikipedia as a source. I sometimes use Wiki when I need to find citations all in one place, but I know that Wiki has some serious problems. I use it to find other resources, but I don't use it as a source itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My first real exposure to Wikipedia was when I edited the fathers&#8217; rights page. The problem was that the page was controversial, and one fathers&#8217; rights supporter in particular was turning the page into a soapbox supportive of the movement rather than an NPOV description of it. I didn&#8217;t have endless hours per day to keep editing the page, so I gave up. At least my criticisms and cites stayed up, providing some balance.  The experience was eye-opening. I&#8217;m glad I don&#8217;t do that stuff anymore.</p>
<p>When I write articles, I&#8217;ve been told by my editors to not use Wikipedia as a source. I sometimes use Wiki when I need to find citations all in one place, but I know that Wiki has some serious problems. I use it to find other resources, but I don&#8217;t use it as a source itself.</p>
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		<title>By: t</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300810</link>
		<dc:creator>t</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300810</guid>
		<description>I would argue that NPOV on its own is not a policy that emphasizes privilege, because on its own it aims to represent all views fairly and dispassionately; but I do agree with you, that in tandem with other policies, as you argue, the aim of NPOV gets tainted in that any other view that is not verified is not permitted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would argue that NPOV on its own is not a policy that emphasizes privilege, because on its own it aims to represent all views fairly and dispassionately; but I do agree with you, that in tandem with other policies, as you argue, the aim of NPOV gets tainted in that any other view that is not verified is not permitted.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug S.</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300725</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 22:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300725</guid>
		<description>The really amazing thing about Wikipedia is that you can look up almost anything.

For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_comic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape:_Torment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_Way_for_Ducklings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet_chicken_processing_plant_fire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer%27s_Phobia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_general_relativity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Labour_Party_%28Trinidad_and_Tobago%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-4_Phantom_II

Wikipedia's wide range can sometimes make it the only readily available source on obscure topics, even if it has problems with accuracy at times. Are you likely to find a more authoritative source on the history of sprite comics than Wikipedia?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The really amazing thing about Wikipedia is that you can look up almost anything.</p>
<p>For example:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_comic" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_comic</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape:_Torment" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape:_Torment</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_Way_for_Ducklings" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_Way_for_Ducklings</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet_chicken_processing_plant_fire" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet_chicken_processing_plant_fire</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer%27s_Phobia" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer%27s_Phobia</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_general_relativity" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_general_relativity</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Labour_Party_%28Trinidad_and_Tobago%29" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Labour_Party_%28Trinidad_and_Tobago%29</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-4_Phantom_II" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-4_Phantom_II</a></p>
<p>Wikipedia&#8217;s wide range can sometimes make it the only readily available source on obscure topics, even if it has problems with accuracy at times. Are you likely to find a more authoritative source on the history of sprite comics than Wikipedia?</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300722</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 22:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300722</guid>
		<description>Whoever pointed out the error should have simply fixed it him- or herself -- it's a Wikipedia policy that anyone who notices clearly incorrect information should change it. For that matter, you yourself could have done so when you noticed it.

As for providing quotes from living people, the interviews would simply need to be documented elsewhere on the Internet in order to avoid being considered original research. That isn't particularly difficult to do -- all you'd need would be a microphone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoever pointed out the error should have simply fixed it him- or herself &#8212; it&#8217;s a Wikipedia policy that anyone who notices clearly incorrect information should change it. For that matter, you yourself could have done so when you noticed it.</p>
<p>As for providing quotes from living people, the interviews would simply need to be documented elsewhere on the Internet in order to avoid being considered original research. That isn&#8217;t particularly difficult to do &#8212; all you&#8217;d need would be a microphone.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug S.</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300719</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 22:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300719</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The error was pointed out on the talk page in 2006, and still hasn’t been fixed. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, somebody finally did fix it.

::shrugs::</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The error was pointed out on the talk page in 2006, and still hasn’t been fixed. </p></blockquote>
<p>Well, somebody finally did fix it.</p>
<p>::shrugs::</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300702</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300702</guid>
		<description>The type of encyclopedia you envision would indeed be useful as a provider of a point of view. By the same token, it would then be less useful as a tool for people of varying points of view to share ideas and information. Undoubtedly, any "neutral" point of view is going to serve some set of social interests, as would a site with an avowed non-neutral position. Neutrality is essentially shorthand for "please keep your partisan life separate from your Wikipedia life, at least in theory", and means that people of widely varying perspectives can all participate meaningfully. It's one of the most democratic platforms for organizing knowledge out there.

The beauty of its democracy is that not only are you free to copy the ideas and structures for WikiLeftyPedia, but they'll even fork their content and give you all their code. And if a significant fraction of the "open source history" community decides that your approach is superior, or even that it is of value in its own unique way, they'll participate and make the project a success.

I suspect, though, that most of those people, even (or perhaps especially) in the definitely liberal-leaning Wiki crowd, find more stimulation in the crosstalk and debate of the marketplace of ideas than they would in an echo chamber, which any ideologically specific site would seem inevitably fated to become.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The type of encyclopedia you envision would indeed be useful as a provider of a point of view. By the same token, it would then be less useful as a tool for people of varying points of view to share ideas and information. Undoubtedly, any &#8220;neutral&#8221; point of view is going to serve some set of social interests, as would a site with an avowed non-neutral position. Neutrality is essentially shorthand for &#8220;please keep your partisan life separate from your Wikipedia life, at least in theory&#8221;, and means that people of widely varying perspectives can all participate meaningfully. It&#8217;s one of the most democratic platforms for organizing knowledge out there.</p>
<p>The beauty of its democracy is that not only are you free to copy the ideas and structures for WikiLeftyPedia, but they&#8217;ll even fork their content and give you all their code. And if a significant fraction of the &#8220;open source history&#8221; community decides that your approach is superior, or even that it is of value in its own unique way, they&#8217;ll participate and make the project a success.</p>
<p>I suspect, though, that most of those people, even (or perhaps especially) in the definitely liberal-leaning Wiki crowd, find more stimulation in the crosstalk and debate of the marketplace of ideas than they would in an echo chamber, which any ideologically specific site would seem inevitably fated to become.</p>
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		<title>By: Disgusted Beyond Belief</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300699</link>
		<dc:creator>Disgusted Beyond Belief</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300699</guid>
		<description>Yes, they have to draw the line somewhere.  And as has been pointed out, publishing today has gotten cheap and easy - anyone can publish anything online, for instance, where the world can see it.  

If they just let unverified oral claims come on, it'd be far less reliable than it already is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, they have to draw the line somewhere.  And as has been pointed out, publishing today has gotten cheap and easy - anyone can publish anything online, for instance, where the world can see it.  </p>
<p>If they just let unverified oral claims come on, it&#8217;d be far less reliable than it already is.</p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300697</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300697</guid>
		<description>How would you balance your complaint with a need for verification? What's to stop someone that disagrees with you from fabricating a quote to refute your real quote?

There’s nothing stopping you from gathering the quotes, writing the history out and attempting to publish it. You may have to self publish. But the internet has made that much less costly than it used to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How would you balance your complaint with a need for verification? What&#8217;s to stop someone that disagrees with you from fabricating a quote to refute your real quote?</p>
<p>There’s nothing stopping you from gathering the quotes, writing the history out and attempting to publish it. You may have to self publish. But the internet has made that much less costly than it used to be.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew R.</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300695</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/01/point-of-view/#comment-300695</guid>
		<description>Maia,

There are plenty of people in all kinds of disciplines whose names end in "Studies" researching the sort of cultural history you'd like to see.  Once their work appears in a verifiable source (peer-reviewed journal, monograph, etc.), then any Wikipedian is more than free to cite it.  The problem with Original Research in a venue like Wikipedia is that it's a platform for any crank with an ethernet cable an an axe to grind to peddle his/her ideas.  Even  communists and/or Butlerites needs some sort of methodological guideposts.  Of all of Wikipedia's weaknesses, NPOV is not one of them.

Wikipedia's weakness is again the problem that (as I just mentioned) it's wide open to anyone with an ethernet cable and an axe to grind.  So, for example, the last time I checked the article on the Pit Bull, I read all about a lovable completely safe animal that is unfairly maligned in the media.  The article on Cannabis talks about all of the wonderful qualities of THC.  There are other examples, but those are the two that I have come across fairly recently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maia,</p>
<p>There are plenty of people in all kinds of disciplines whose names end in &#8220;Studies&#8221; researching the sort of cultural history you&#8217;d like to see.  Once their work appears in a verifiable source (peer-reviewed journal, monograph, etc.), then any Wikipedian is more than free to cite it.  The problem with Original Research in a venue like Wikipedia is that it&#8217;s a platform for any crank with an ethernet cable an an axe to grind to peddle his/her ideas.  Even  communists and/or Butlerites needs some sort of methodological guideposts.  Of all of Wikipedia&#8217;s weaknesses, NPOV is not one of them.</p>
<p>Wikipedia&#8217;s weakness is again the problem that (as I just mentioned) it&#8217;s wide open to anyone with an ethernet cable and an axe to grind.  So, for example, the last time I checked the article on the Pit Bull, I read all about a lovable completely safe animal that is unfairly maligned in the media.  The article on Cannabis talks about all of the wonderful qualities of THC.  There are other examples, but those are the two that I have come across fairly recently.</p>
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