Comments on: From the Department of Hypocrites–More Republican Bathroom Sex http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/ Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about. Sat, 30 Aug 2008 08:49:22 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: Eliza http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302844 Eliza Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:08:01 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302844 I have to ask -- is there any evidence whatsoever that Graham is gay -- <i>other than</i> his being "effeminate" and never married at 52? Because I do have to say, those qualities alone being used to "out" <i>anyone</i> really creeps me out. Heck, those qualities alone being used to ID someone as gay really creeps me out. I mean, talk about holding up the heterosexist and sexist gender roles. I have to ask — is there any evidence whatsoever that Graham is gay — other than his being “effeminate” and never married at 52? Because I do have to say, those qualities alone being used to “out” anyone really creeps me out. Heck, those qualities alone being used to ID someone as gay really creeps me out. I mean, talk about holding up the heterosexist and sexist gender roles.

]]> By: DaisyDeadhead http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302762 DaisyDeadhead Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:25:47 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302762 <i>BTW, “The Ass Gerbils” [or “The Arse Gerbils”] would be a great name for a rock band.</i> I haven't been able to stop thinking about this! :D BTW, “The Ass Gerbils” [or “The Arse Gerbils”] would be a great name for a rock band.

I haven’t been able to stop thinking about this! :D

]]> By: Jake Squid http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302758 Jake Squid Thu, 30 Aug 2007 19:46:17 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302758 I've had plenty of passes made at me by men. It seems that I used to look just like a prostitute! Who knew? In none of those cases would I say that the men should have been arrested. But then, not a single one of those times was I sitting on the toilet nor asleep in my bed, etc. If it shouldn't be illegal to touch a stranger while they're defecating, should it also not be illegal to take photos or video of people in the bathroom? I see the two as very similar acts. They are both an invasion of privacy (not to mention truly, truly creepy). If you want to talk about the problems w/ sting operations, I'm with you. If you want to discuss whether or not Senator Creep (R-Id) would have caressed the stall wall had the officer not tapped his foot, I'm open to it. But I know that there are a not insignificant number of people who would have felt truly threatened by the actions of Senator Creep (R-Id). I’ve had plenty of passes made at me by men. It seems that I used to look just like a prostitute! Who knew? In none of those cases would I say that the men should have been arrested. But then, not a single one of those times was I sitting on the toilet nor asleep in my bed, etc. If it shouldn’t be illegal to touch a stranger while they’re defecating, should it also not be illegal to take photos or video of people in the bathroom? I see the two as very similar acts. They are both an invasion of privacy (not to mention truly, truly creepy).

If you want to talk about the problems w/ sting operations, I’m with you. If you want to discuss whether or not Senator Creep (R-Id) would have caressed the stall wall had the officer not tapped his foot, I’m open to it. But I know that there are a not insignificant number of people who would have felt truly threatened by the actions of Senator Creep (R-Id).

]]> By: Ivory Bill Woodpecker http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302700 Ivory Bill Woodpecker Thu, 30 Aug 2007 06:43:31 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302700 I await the inevitable announcement that a GOP senator or congresscritter has been caught with a gerbil up his ass [or arse,for our foreign friends]. :) BTW, "The Ass Gerbils" [or "The Arse Gerbils"] would be a great name for a rock band. I await the inevitable announcement that a GOP senator or congresscritter has been caught with a gerbil up his ass [or arse,for our foreign friends]. :)

BTW, “The Ass Gerbils” [or “The Arse Gerbils”] would be a great name for a rock band.

]]> By: Myca http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302698 Myca Thu, 30 Aug 2007 05:47:03 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302698 Jake, I come at this with the assumption that treating these sorts of come-ons as a criminal matter has served to harass the local gay community an inordinate amount, and in that light, I see the costs outweighing the benefits. Granted, I don't give a whole lot of a crap what happens specifically to this dude . . . it's more the whole 'sting operation' and all the non-senators they've gathered in their net that I'm concerned about. ---Myca Jake, I come at this with the assumption that treating these sorts of come-ons as a criminal matter has served to harass the local gay community an inordinate amount, and in that light, I see the costs outweighing the benefits.

Granted, I don’t give a whole lot of a crap what happens specifically to this dude . . . it’s more the whole ’sting operation’ and all the non-senators they’ve gathered in their net that I’m concerned about.

—Myca

]]> By: drydock http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302690 drydock Thu, 30 Aug 2007 03:12:31 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302690 Yeah, I'm not surprised the Senator Graham name has come up. My gaydar starts beeping every time I see that guy on TV. In the link I followed he's 52, never married... oh I guess I'm picking on single heteros, probably just hasn't found the right woman yet. ;) Craig, I'm guessing is more a MSM (men who have sex with men) type. Basically hetero but gets a kick from certain thrill seeking sex activities. Yeah, I’m not surprised the Senator Graham name has come up. My gaydar starts beeping every time I see that guy on TV. In the link I followed he’s 52, never married… oh I guess I’m picking on single heteros, probably just hasn’t found the right woman yet. ;)

Craig, I’m guessing is more a MSM (men who have sex with men) type. Basically hetero but gets a kick from certain thrill seeking sex activities.

]]> By: mythago http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302688 mythago Thu, 30 Aug 2007 02:59:19 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302688 The interesting part of this is not the arrest, which seems pretty thin, but the fact that Craig pleaded guilty. The interesting part of this is not the arrest, which seems pretty thin, but the fact that Craig pleaded guilty.

]]> By: Ampersand http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302685 Ampersand Thu, 30 Aug 2007 02:24:12 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302685 Jake, I agree it's rude behavior (particularly the peering), but I think arresting people for this is over-reacting. <a href="http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2007_08_26-2007_09_01.shtml#1188338033" rel="nofollow">I agree with Dale Carpenter</a>: <blockquote>People should not have to tolerate actual sexual conduct in public places, but that's not what happened here. Craig's conduct was not obscene, abusive, boisterous, or noisy. The officer might have considered Craig's actions "offensive . . . conduct . . . tending reasonably to arouse alarm, anger, or resentment in others." But if that's so, it seems a pretty thin basis for charging him. A reasonable person faced with Craig's alleged behavior would have moved his foot away and/or muttered a simple "no thanks" or "stop that," which likely would have brought an end to it. A continuation of the unwelcome behavior might then have been enough to charge him with something, but again, that didn't happen. In fact, the officer tapped his own foot in response, indicating the interest was mutual.</blockquote> Jake, I agree it’s rude behavior (particularly the peering), but I think arresting people for this is over-reacting. I agree with Dale Carpenter:

People should not have to tolerate actual sexual conduct in public places, but that’s not what happened here. Craig’s conduct was not obscene, abusive, boisterous, or noisy. The officer might have considered Craig’s actions “offensive . . . conduct . . . tending reasonably to arouse alarm, anger, or resentment in others.” But if that’s so, it seems a pretty thin basis for charging him. A reasonable person faced with Craig’s alleged behavior would have moved his foot away and/or muttered a simple “no thanks” or “stop that,” which likely would have brought an end to it. A continuation of the unwelcome behavior might then have been enough to charge him with something, but again, that didn’t happen. In fact, the officer tapped his own foot in response, indicating the interest was mutual.

]]> By: DaisyDeadhead http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302682 DaisyDeadhead Thu, 30 Aug 2007 02:01:17 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302682 I'm suddenly getting a lot of hits for this post, using a variety of search terms. The attention given to Sen. Craig is also bringing suspicion to Sen. Graham rather suddenly. I have very mixed feelings about that. Identical politics, though: http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2007/08/on-senator-graham.html I’m suddenly getting a lot of hits for this post, using a variety of search terms. The attention given to Sen. Craig is also bringing suspicion to Sen. Graham rather suddenly. I have very mixed feelings about that.

Identical politics, though:

http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2007/08/on-senator-graham.html

]]> By: Jake Squid http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302675 Jake Squid Thu, 30 Aug 2007 01:04:16 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302675 <i>... why on earth is this illegal?</i> Because it's an invasion of privacy. I'd like the guy who peers through the crack in the stall door then sticks his foot under the stall wall to touch my foot and who keeps rubbing his hand on the underside of the wall to be arrested. I can think of few things that I want less while I'm crapping than for a stranger to touch me. So, he didn't get arrested for "asking for sex." He got arrested for invading a reasonable expectation of privacy. I'm okay with that. I am, however, not okay with laws making asking somebody for sex illegal - a law that Leering Larry is in favor of if it is applied to gay men. Honestly, I'd be jumping in to defend the creep if he had been arrested for soliciting sex in a public area of a public restroom. … why on earth is this illegal?

Because it’s an invasion of privacy. I’d like the guy who peers through the crack in the stall door then sticks his foot under the stall wall to touch my foot and who keeps rubbing his hand on the underside of the wall to be arrested. I can think of few things that I want less while I’m crapping than for a stranger to touch me.

So, he didn’t get arrested for “asking for sex.” He got arrested for invading a reasonable expectation of privacy. I’m okay with that. I am, however, not okay with laws making asking somebody for sex illegal - a law that Leering Larry is in favor of if it is applied to gay men. Honestly, I’d be jumping in to defend the creep if he had been arrested for soliciting sex in a public area of a public restroom.

]]> By: Myca http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302655 Myca Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:23:35 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302655 <blockquote>I assume it has something to do with people like Larry Craig</blockquote> *grin* Okay, that's fair. There is a certain joy in seeing a card-carrying member of the morality brigade hoist on his own petard. ---Myca

I assume it has something to do with people like Larry Craig

*grin* Okay, that’s fair.

There is a certain joy in seeing a card-carrying member of the morality brigade hoist on his own petard.

—Myca

]]> By: A.J. Luxton http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302653 A.J. Luxton Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:01:28 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302653 Regarding "why on earth is this illegal," well, I assume it has something to do with people like Larry Craig making policy, yes? Regarding “why on earth is this illegal,”

well, I assume it has something to do with people like Larry Craig making policy, yes?

]]> By: Robert http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302649 Robert Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:09:49 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302649 <i>‘disorderly conduct’ seems a little disingenuous</i> He got the foot tap code wrong, and the officer arrested him to prevent a disruption in the bathroom scene that day. ‘disorderly conduct’ seems a little disingenuous

He got the foot tap code wrong, and the officer arrested him to prevent a disruption in the bathroom scene that day.

]]> By: Myca http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302647 Myca Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:16:52 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302647 The second. I understand that <i>having</i> sex in a public bathroom is out of line . . . but if 'asking for sex' consists of a foot-tapping ritual that only another person interested in anonymous sex with a stranger would recognize or respond to, then 'disorderly conduct' seems a little disingenuous, no? ---Myca The second.

I understand that having sex in a public bathroom is out of line . . . but if ‘asking for sex’ consists of a foot-tapping ritual that only another person interested in anonymous sex with a stranger would recognize or respond to, then ‘disorderly conduct’ seems a little disingenuous, no?

—Myca

]]> By: Rachel S. http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302645 Rachel S. Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:51:12 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302645 Are you aksing why it is illegal to have sex in a public bathroom or why it was illegal to ask for sex in the bathroom? Are you aksing why it is illegal to have sex in a public bathroom or why it was illegal to ask for sex in the bathroom?

]]> By: Myca http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302643 Myca Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:01:27 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302643 As much as I love to see Yet Another Closeted Hypocrite taken down, I think Marmelade makes a good point . . . why on earth is this illegal? ---Myca As much as I love to see Yet Another Closeted Hypocrite taken down, I think Marmelade makes a good point . . . why on earth is this illegal?

—Myca

]]> By: Rachel S. http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302641 Rachel S. Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:52:12 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302641 marmelade, I'm not sure exactly how the law works, but generally the rules of the Tearoom are that you ask for sex and subsequently have sex in that bathroom. For anybody who doesn't know about the Tearoom Trade sutdy by Laud Humphreys I suggest reading it. It is quite famous in sociology; primarily because of some of the ethical issues that the study had, but it is essentially a study of public bathrooms where men have sex with other men. Humphreys acted as the look out, and he also got information from the liscence plates of the guys. He then interviewed them in their homes under false pretenses. He found out that most of the guys were married men, who were living this kind of double life style. I guess just like Larry Craig. I would believe his denials and the whole I was just tapping my foot if 1) there were not other know cases of him soliciting men for sex in public places and 2) he didn't use all of the nonverbal codes they association with Tearooms. marmelade,
I’m not sure exactly how the law works, but generally the rules of the Tearoom are that you ask for sex and subsequently have sex in that bathroom.

For anybody who doesn’t know about the Tearoom Trade sutdy by Laud Humphreys I suggest reading it. It is quite famous in sociology; primarily because of some of the ethical issues that the study had, but it is essentially a study of public bathrooms where men have sex with other men. Humphreys acted as the look out, and he also got information from the liscence plates of the guys. He then interviewed them in their homes under false pretenses. He found out that most of the guys were married men, who were living this kind of double life style. I guess just like Larry Craig.

I would believe his denials and the whole I was just tapping my foot if 1) there were not other know cases of him soliciting men for sex in public places and 2) he didn’t use all of the nonverbal codes they association with Tearooms.

]]> By: marmelade http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302618 marmelade Wed, 29 Aug 2007 06:56:37 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302618 what bugs me about this story is not Craig's hypocracy so much (if he was, indeed, soliciting sex from a guy in a bathroom - we can give him a bit of benefit of doubt . . . maybe he just had to tap his foot to a great Madonna tune in his head). What bugs me is that no one is discussing whether asking for sex from someone in a public place should be illegal at all. People do it all the time, no one is about to arrest everyone who asks a stranger for sex in public. If a man asks me (a woman) to have sex with him, and I drag a cop over to arrest him, do you think that guy will be spending the night jail? A stranger soliciting sex is annoying and maybe a little scary, but I can always say "no." Repeted advances and physical contact fall nicely under laws against accosting people. And Craig didn't even ask out loud, in plain words, he just hinted. What about leers? Do those count as "lewd" sexual solicitations that should get people arrested? Do the plainclothes cops haunt bars in that airport where Craig was arrested, to see if any men are soliciting sex with women or vice versa? Yes, Craig might be a hypocritical self-hating closet case, but that's a matter for the electorate, not law enforcement officers. I guess I'm just naive, but I think that our justice system probably has better things to do than covertly hunt down men who ask other men for sex. Our great Mikado, virtuous man, When he to rule our land began, Resolved to try a plan whereby Young men might be steadied. So he decreed in words succinct, That all who flirted, leered or winked, (Unless connubially linked) Should forthwith be beheaded. - The Mikado, Gilbert and Sullivan farce, 1885 what bugs me about this story is not Craig’s hypocracy so much (if he was, indeed, soliciting sex from a guy in a bathroom - we can give him a bit of benefit of doubt . . . maybe he just had to tap his foot to a great Madonna tune in his head).

What bugs me is that no one is discussing whether asking for sex from someone in a public place should be illegal at all.

People do it all the time, no one is about to arrest everyone who asks a stranger for sex in public. If a man asks me (a woman) to have sex with him, and I drag a cop over to arrest him, do you think that guy will be spending the night jail? A stranger soliciting sex is annoying and maybe a little scary, but I can always say “no.” Repeted advances and physical contact fall nicely under laws against accosting people. And Craig didn’t even ask out loud, in plain words, he just hinted. What about leers? Do those count as “lewd” sexual solicitations that should get people arrested? Do the plainclothes cops haunt bars in that airport where Craig was arrested, to see if any men are soliciting sex with women or vice versa? Yes, Craig might be a hypocritical self-hating closet case, but that’s a matter for the electorate, not law enforcement officers. I guess I’m just naive, but I think that our justice system probably has better things to do than covertly hunt down men who ask other men for sex.

Our great Mikado, virtuous man,
When he to rule our land began,
Resolved to try a plan whereby
Young men might be steadied.
So he decreed in words succinct,
That all who flirted, leered or winked,
(Unless connubially linked)
Should forthwith be beheaded.
- The Mikado, Gilbert and Sullivan farce, 1885

]]> By: drydock http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302599 drydock Wed, 29 Aug 2007 01:18:11 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302599 He's made himself a very powerful and rich person by pushing a particularly noxious right wing social agenda. One small but significant part of this agenda was to pander to anti-gay bigotry. He's a hypocrite to the core. He’s made himself a very powerful and rich person by pushing a particularly noxious right wing social agenda. One small but significant part of this agenda was to pander to anti-gay bigotry. He’s a hypocrite to the core.

]]> By: Robert http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302593 Robert Tue, 28 Aug 2007 22:55:29 +0000 http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/08/27/from-the-department-of-hypocrites-more-republican-bathroom-sex/#comment-302593 I don't know what his moral values or teachings are; I just know that political opinions about hate crimes laws and marital arrangements are not things that become hypocritical in the light of homosexuality. I'm an Italian but that doesn't mean I have to favor increased immigration from Italy. ;) I don’t know what his moral values or teachings are; I just know that political opinions about hate crimes laws and marital arrangements are not things that become hypocritical in the light of homosexuality. I’m an Italian but that doesn’t mean I have to favor increased immigration from Italy. ;)

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