I was wondering about that myself!

And yes, you’re right that your response to Jasper’s post does count for something, in my haste to post I overlooked it.

I have observed a great range of experience in the life of Jews in the US, including great success and great failure. How much of this is a result of anti-semitism, I hope to say more on in my next post to this thread.

I’m sorry, Soopermouse, but I think that is utter bullshit. Unless, of course, by “attacking” you mean calling for the destruction or dismantling of Israel. I get the feeling, though, that by “attacking” you really mean “criticising” (including “criticising the Israeli government or their policies”).

Also, judging from your comments, I think you’d be a lot closer in that sentence if you replace the words, “anti semitic,” with the single, hyphenated word, “anti-zionist.”

There is certainly room for serious criticism of Israeli governments and policies that don’t qualify as either anti-semitic or anti-zionist. If you’re not willing to admit that, you are severely reducing your possible contributions to the conversation.

Also, wrt to the above quoted sentence, I believe that this is demonstrably false. Nearly 2000 years of history indicates otherwise.

The straw man over there is missing all kinds of limbs, though. Good job attacking it.

Meanwhile, until you start addressing what I’ve said instead of what you imagine I’ve said, I’m done talking to you.

I can show you the data showing systemic pervasive discrimination worldwide against Jews, and contextualize that the movement of freeing us from that oppression has the existence of the State of Israel at the centre of it.

You don’t get to cry that you can’t define our group’s oppression based on your impressions of the world while erasing my right to do the same.

Except for the little tiny part where both you and Amp are denying the oppression, right?
I do not want to deny the experience of the American Jews. But maybe, just maybe, you guys need to remember that the world is not only the USA, that the Holocaust did not happen in the USA and just because you guys didn’t experience oppression at the levels we did here doesn’t give you the right to attack what is, in many cases, the only home a lot of Jews can think of, namely Israel.

Attacking Israel is anti semitic because Israel is central to the survival of our people. And attacking Israel while willingly ignoring not only the openly stated purposes of the opponents of Israel including the Palestinian leadership is antisemitic and destructive.

Israel does not owe anything to people who refuse to even recognize its existence and who have demonstrated that their main purpose is its destruction. Refusing to acknowledge that, as dmeonstrated at Camp David II and by their own declarations, is blind and homicidal the same way the great powers who ignored Germany’s openly stated plans before WW2 were. We have seen the results of this sort of ignorance, but from ther comfort of your homes you can afford to not paying attention to the whole problem because the point might just not square with your opinion.

But then again American exceptionalism has to strike again, doesn’t it?

And you champion it because you say you’ve experienced it yourself — in another country, one excluded by any opinions I’ve expressed. We’re both Jewish, neh? We can’t wash out each other’s opinions with shouting. You don’t get to cry that you can’t define our group’s oppression based on your impressions of the world while erasing my right to do the same.

Oppression requires systemic, pervasive discrimination. Show me the data. Or, if you can’t, at least argue that there is no data because of anti-semitic assumptions in sociology.

I’m really sick of this line of argument. Amp and I are Jews also. Therefore, we’re included in the discussion of defining our own oppression. Or are you saying we’re not allowed to define our own experience?

Eva, before I agree that this kind of discrimination is pervasive and systemic, I would really like to see concrete sociological data proving the disbenefits to being Jewish in the US. We can analyze other oppressed groups’ oppression along these axes. I don’t remember having seen data about Jewish people or families along these lines.

I appreciate Jasper’s experiences, and said so. That goes part of the way for me.

But to deny that other Jews, with or without equal amounts of insulating priviledge, also don’t experience the oppression of anti-semitism is very suprising.

I’m interested in seeing more comments from Ampersand and Mandolin regarding this.

Huh? How about the YMHA?

I have seen, personally and via the media, several instances of anti-semitism in NYC–which one would normally think of as a pretty safe place–in the last month or so. Anti-semitism in the US is not dead, but it’s hardly as respectable as, say, racism or anti-immigration prejudice. But if the existence of prejudice in the US or other countries is the benchmark for when a group of people should have a country of their own, shouldn’t gay people and women also have their own countries? I’m not sure how that would work out socially, though…

The comments in this Alas, a Blog post have hosted a roaring discussion about whether Jews ought to be considered a subordinated people for the purpose of left-wing critical theory. I staked out the original “yes” position, the hosts of the blog (Amp…

Brandeis.

You seem to have weird ideas about what concepts require proof.

As for the oppression as non Christian… I fully agree. Yet my Hindy colleagues can get time off for Diwali, my Muslim colleagues can get time off and certain allowances for their religious holidays and daily prayer specifications. I don’t know if I am the only person who has to use my holiday time for religious ( mostly for tradition following purposes from my POV, but still), but it looks that way.

Is it because the Hindu and Muslim communities in my area are big enough to warrant such allowances? Is it oppression that we are ALL forced to follow the Christian holidays?

Each time I ask these questions within the local Jewish community, I get told to shut up and not create trouble. I wouldn’t have even thought to put my ethnicity as Romanian and not Jewish until I was advised to do so, and the change i noted was… impressive in lack of a better word.

Thanks for rooting those examples, Jake.

It’s certainly been a roadblock for me in some ways. From friendships to work environment to family relations. In some locations & times, I’ve been unwilling to disclose my Jewish roots for fear of reprisal.

When the phrase, “they didn’t even jew them down,” is not unheard of, there are roadblocks. (ETA: And you don’t need to ask what it means.)

When there are organized and not entirely insignificant groups that target Jews for violence & harrasment, there are roadblocks.

When “hidden Jewish roots” are the subject of scandal (admittedly on both sides of the issue) in a Senatorial election, there are roadblocks.

When people feel the need to keep their ancestry or religion undisclosed, there are roadblocks.

As I said, the oppression may not be as severe as for other groups, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

Was it presented as definite evidence? Oddly, I thought it was presented as an “I” statement.

“such as the creation of parallel institutions”

For example? (and your proof of its current ameliorative affects?)

Is your comment #99 a response to my mention of the opppression of Blacks here in the US in comment #94?

Diane:

I also thought of Liberia when I was writing my comment #94, but I did not have enough historical information to do so with any substance. I think the parallels you raise are very interesting and worth thinking about in some detail.