Comments on: Podcast: Politics of the Veil in France

By: Bq

Bq — Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:50:50 +0000

Richard, how do you know that those domestic violence cases were about religion? What’s “the Muslim community” anyway? Muslims in Britain don’t all share the same ethnicities/culture. Your point (that there is more dv among Muslims than people of other religions) relied on certain logical gaps.

By: Richard Aubrey

Richard Aubrey — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:52:59 +0000

There’s a story that Kemal Ataturk forbade the veil or some kind of head covering–by law–because he was absolutely certain, and almost absolutely right–that it would not be a matter of choice.
What happened to the women who chose not to wear it once they got back to the ‘hood didn’t bear thinking about.
Several years ago, the British police admitted they were reopening more than hundred cases of suspicious deaths among young Muslim women which they had dropped to avoid inflaming the community. Horrendous thing for a police force to admit, and a horrendous accusation of the Muslim community. So, after they got going again, they discovered resistance within the community to the investigations.
Point is, even laws don’t work very well unless the general community supports them.
Multiculturalism which does not insist on and, if necessary, force, minority communities to accept the rule of law are going to have trouble. Holland is another case.

By: Crys T

Crys T — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 18:41:05 +0000

I’ve always wondered why so many people see France as all cool & groovy about this sort of thing. After all, they’re still trying to eradicate their own indigenous minority cultures (e.g. the Basques, Catalans, Bretons).

As far as rights for smaller indigenous languages go, they’re about the worst I know of in Europe, so it’s no surprise at all that they’re so crap about immigrant cultures.

By: Robert

Robert — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 00:37:47 +0000

France used to be fairly notoriously anti-Semitic.

Still is.

By: mythago

mythago — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:57:09 +0000

Did the situation get to the point that it was necessary to ban such a costume by law?

No. France has always had a ‘multiculturalism’ policy of the sort favored by some American conservatives: you’re supposed to fully assimilate and set aside your native culture, not just in terms of civic behavior and following the laws, but in all ways. It’s fine if you have your little folk traditions, but that’s as far as it goes.

France used to be fairly notoriously anti-Semitic. Odd how things shift.

By: Doug S.

Doug S. — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:07:25 +0000

I hate podcasts because I read a lot faster than people talk. :(

By: Silenced is Foo

Silenced is Foo — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:06:53 +0000

@RonF - I tend to think most conservatives were introduced to French ideas of “multiculturalism” once Paris was burning. It’s kinda hard to say “Yeah, that sounds great!” when that’s your first glimpse of it in action.

I don’t know how they would’ve felt about it beforehand, given that many conservatives have opinions that mirror the French policies.

By: RonF

RonF — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:23:11 +0000

Actually, the French approach to multiculturalism is not particularly admired by conservatives. Not that I’ve seen, anyway.

By: RonF

RonF — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:17:10 +0000

I actually opposed France’s banning of the hijab, et. al., from the outset. It violates both freedom of speech/expression and the freedom to practice religion. I have no problem with women wearing whatever they please. I have a big problem with women being forced to wear a particular costume on pain of being beaten or killed. Did the situation get to the point that it was necessary to ban such a costume by law?

Multiculturalism has gotten a horrible connotation in many areas. It’s worth considering what it means, however. In some cases it has meant that someone wants to build a mosque in a city that heretofore has only seen churches and synagogues. Some people think that the very presence of such a thing is horrific and threatening. My viewpoint is that absent zoning law issues, there should be no problem - but I have no patience with groups that think that zoning laws should be set aside to suit their desires and make accusations of discrimination when they’re not. If a young girl thinks that she should be permitted to wear some kind of voluminous total-body covering garment to school, fine. But don’t expect that the uniforming rules for the basketball team are going to get changed, or that the rules adopted for the safety of participants in the swimming pool will be changed. If you want to speak Spanish/Farsi/whatever at home or in any private context, it’s none of my business. But if you want to interface with the government, learn English or pay for a translator. If your religion says you can have more than one spouse, too bad; you can’t, not here in America, and (from what I hear, unlike England), you’ve no right to public support for multiple spouses. If you want a school to provide a space for your children to pray during the school day, sorry; the same rules that apply to Christians, Jews, etc. regarding “separation of church and state” apply to you as well.

If you want to exercise your culture, fine. But there’s no right to require American culture to change to accomodate it, unless you can convince a voting majority to agree.

By: Robert

Robert — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:16:48 +0000

Damn frogs, stealing our ideas!

By: Yusifu

Yusifu — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 09:13:03 +0000

Just a pedantic point–Scott isn’t at Princeton. She’s a professor at the Institute for Advanced Study, which is in Princeton but isn’t part of the university. It’s probably the most prestigious academic gig in the country; Einstein was there, among other notables. Her book Gender and the Politics of History is probably *the* key text in the emergence of recent forms of feminist history.