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	<title>Comments on: BrownFemiPower’s Final (?) Words</title>
	<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/04/17/brownfemipower%e2%80%99s-final-words/</link>
	<description>Feminist, anti-racist, pro-fat, plus whatever else we feel like talking about.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 03:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Emily</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/04/17/brownfemipower%e2%80%99s-final-words/#comment-322480</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/04/17/brownfemipower%e2%80%99s-final-words/#comment-322480</guid>
		<description>Welcome, BFP, it's so good to hear something from you in all this storminess.  Your criticisms were so far afield from selfish/lazy/jealous - and it's good to have you point that out.  

I just want to add, that while a certain big time blogger may not every learn anything from these incidents, I certainly learned a lot from the FFF and book cover dust-ups, and I think there are a lot of white feminists and "feminists" out there learning a lot from you and learning a lot from watching how the white feminist community reacts to these incidents over and over again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome, BFP, it&#8217;s so good to hear something from you in all this storminess.  Your criticisms were so far afield from selfish/lazy/jealous - and it&#8217;s good to have you point that out.  </p>
<p>I just want to add, that while a certain big time blogger may not every learn anything from these incidents, I certainly learned a lot from the FFF and book cover dust-ups, and I think there are a lot of white feminists and &#8220;feminists&#8221; out there learning a lot from you and learning a lot from watching how the white feminist community reacts to these incidents over and over again.</p>
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		<title>By: Ali</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/04/17/brownfemipower%e2%80%99s-final-words/#comment-322303</link>
		<dc:creator>Ali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/04/17/brownfemipower%e2%80%99s-final-words/#comment-322303</guid>
		<description>Nuomena, my own personal take on that line you quoted above is that real/idealogical feminists are to "feminists" as genuine nice guys are to Nice Guys (TM)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nuomena, my own personal take on that line you quoted above is that real/idealogical feminists are to &#8220;feminists&#8221; as genuine nice guys are to Nice Guys (TM)</p>
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		<title>By: Noumena</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/04/17/brownfemipower%e2%80%99s-final-words/#comment-322301</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/04/17/brownfemipower%e2%80%99s-final-words/#comment-322301</guid>
		<description>I'm happy to grant that the problem is serious and much bigger than what a handful of people said on a blog.  Or even what a bunch of people said on a bunch of blogs.  (I argued as much on that very thread.)  And I don't want to argue sources and evidence.  This isn't a scholarly dispute.  

I included that dashed clause in the sentence you quoted to stress the fact that not all feminists are dismissing you and the criticisms of feminism that you're making.  The impression I've gotten is exactly the opposite -- that a vast majority of participants agreed with you, supported you, and resolved to work on doing better.  Maybe this is inaccurate, or maybe it's significant that several of the most prominent participants did shove their fingers in their ears and desperately try to change the subject.  But still, there was an enormous amount of support and sympathy coming from feminists, as feminists.  Dismissing feminism, as a whole, as thoroughly corrupt and hypocritical required actively ignoring all of us who agree with you.  

I can understand needing to get out of an environment where you're at the centre of one hell of an ugly dispute.  I wish you peace and health, I really do.  But `feminism is incompatible with justice for women of colour!' is, I think, just as disingenuous and ugly a charge as `BFP is lazy and jealous!'  And I have to come down, hard, against them both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m happy to grant that the problem is serious and much bigger than what a handful of people said on a blog.  Or even what a bunch of people said on a bunch of blogs.  (I argued as much on that very thread.)  And I don&#8217;t want to argue sources and evidence.  This isn&#8217;t a scholarly dispute.  </p>
<p>I included that dashed clause in the sentence you quoted to stress the fact that not all feminists are dismissing you and the criticisms of feminism that you&#8217;re making.  The impression I&#8217;ve gotten is exactly the opposite &#8212; that a vast majority of participants agreed with you, supported you, and resolved to work on doing better.  Maybe this is inaccurate, or maybe it&#8217;s significant that several of the most prominent participants did shove their fingers in their ears and desperately try to change the subject.  But still, there was an enormous amount of support and sympathy coming from feminists, as feminists.  Dismissing feminism, as a whole, as thoroughly corrupt and hypocritical required actively ignoring all of us who agree with you.  </p>
<p>I can understand needing to get out of an environment where you&#8217;re at the centre of one hell of an ugly dispute.  I wish you peace and health, I really do.  But `feminism is incompatible with justice for women of colour!&#8217; is, I think, just as disingenuous and ugly a charge as `BFP is lazy and jealous!&#8217;  And I have to come down, hard, against them both.</p>
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		<title>By: bfp</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/04/17/brownfemipower%e2%80%99s-final-words/#comment-322292</link>
		<dc:creator>bfp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/04/17/brownfemipower%e2%80%99s-final-words/#comment-322292</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;But in claiming feminism is actively destroying and radically opposes that work — based, evidently, on picking and choosing comments in a single thread — she is ignoring an enormous amount of feminist support for her and her criticisms&lt;/b&gt;

take a look at the rest of the post--this is not about just one incident or even only online incidences. Hugo's post/comments only *clarified* what I had been looking at for a long time.  It wasn't the first or the last "problem"--it was the beautiful molded half eaten cherry sitting on top of a melted dirt filled sundae.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>But in claiming feminism is actively destroying and radically opposes that work — based, evidently, on picking and choosing comments in a single thread — she is ignoring an enormous amount of feminist support for her and her criticisms</b></p>
<p>take a look at the rest of the post&#8211;this is not about just one incident or even only online incidences. Hugo&#8217;s post/comments only *clarified* what I had been looking at for a long time.  It wasn&#8217;t the first or the last &#8220;problem&#8221;&#8211;it was the beautiful molded half eaten cherry sitting on top of a melted dirt filled sundae.</p>
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		<title>By: Noumena</title>
		<link>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/04/17/brownfemipower%e2%80%99s-final-words/#comment-322269</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 04:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/04/17/brownfemipower%e2%80%99s-final-words/#comment-322269</guid>
		<description>Wow.  I sympathise.  I really, really do.  I've said as much in my comments at Hugo's, and I think the points I've been trying to make -- against `both' `sides' -- are the points BFP wants to make.  

But.  This: 
&lt;em&gt;“Feminists,” on the other hand, are not movement building, they are actively destroying women and blaming those women for the destruction.&lt;/em&gt;
and this:
&lt;em&gt;I think that erasing an entire community through words is violence&lt;/em&gt;
are contradictory.  

I followed the threads on Hugo's blog pretty closely (as closely as I could during the last, very busy, ten days), and the impression I got was that the majority &lt;em&gt;supported&lt;/em&gt; BFP, thought Hugo had misunderstood the situation, and that Amanda should, at the very least, acknowledge the work BFP and others had done on immigration before her RH Reality Check piece, even if she didn't, strictly speaking, plagiarise from any of those other writers.  &lt;a href="http://feministing.com/archives/008997.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Feministing&lt;/a&gt; and Holly at &lt;a href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/10/this-has-not-been-a-good-week-for-woman-of-color-blogging/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Feministe&lt;/a&gt; both issued posts that were supportive of BFP and resolved to do a better job engaging with RWOC bloggers.  &lt;em&gt;Holly even argued directly with Amanda in the thread below the linked post.&lt;/em&gt;

BFP is right -- mainstream feminism has a problem ignoring the work of RWOC.  But in claiming feminism is actively destroying and radically opposes that work -- based, evidently, on picking and choosing comments in a single thread -- she is ignoring an enormous amount of feminist support for her and her criticisms.  

I'm not saying RWOC should throw white feminists a parade just for recognising that there's a problem.  And I'm not saying that feminism has miraculously been purged of all its flaws in this single incident.  But don't dismiss the movement and claim it's ignored and misunderstood you when it agreed with and supported you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow.  I sympathise.  I really, really do.  I&#8217;ve said as much in my comments at Hugo&#8217;s, and I think the points I&#8217;ve been trying to make &#8212; against `both&#8217; `sides&#8217; &#8212; are the points BFP wants to make.  </p>
<p>But.  This:<br />
<em>“Feminists,” on the other hand, are not movement building, they are actively destroying women and blaming those women for the destruction.</em><br />
and this:<br />
<em>I think that erasing an entire community through words is violence</em><br />
are contradictory.  </p>
<p>I followed the threads on Hugo&#8217;s blog pretty closely (as closely as I could during the last, very busy, ten days), and the impression I got was that the majority <em>supported</em> BFP, thought Hugo had misunderstood the situation, and that Amanda should, at the very least, acknowledge the work BFP and others had done on immigration before her RH Reality Check piece, even if she didn&#8217;t, strictly speaking, plagiarise from any of those other writers.  <a href="http://feministing.com/archives/008997.html" rel="nofollow">Feministing</a> and Holly at <a href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/10/this-has-not-been-a-good-week-for-woman-of-color-blogging/" rel="nofollow">Feministe</a> both issued posts that were supportive of BFP and resolved to do a better job engaging with RWOC bloggers.  <em>Holly even argued directly with Amanda in the thread below the linked post.</em></p>
<p>BFP is right &#8212; mainstream feminism has a problem ignoring the work of RWOC.  But in claiming feminism is actively destroying and radically opposes that work &#8212; based, evidently, on picking and choosing comments in a single thread &#8212; she is ignoring an enormous amount of feminist support for her and her criticisms.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying RWOC should throw white feminists a parade just for recognising that there&#8217;s a problem.  And I&#8217;m not saying that feminism has miraculously been purged of all its flaws in this single incident.  But don&#8217;t dismiss the movement and claim it&#8217;s ignored and misunderstood you when it agreed with and supported you.</p>
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