More commonly know as slavery?

They are saying the point of feminism is “equality with men” without even thinking to acknowledge that “equality with women” is just as admirable of a goal and maybe even possibly the first step to achieving the goal of equality with men.

Fair cop. I did think this sentence was one of the brilliant parts of BFP’s post. It’s absolutely true, and important.

I just wanted to clarify that I did think that sentence was brilliant, and I should have said so in the post.

Ravenmn, one thing I think is critical for maintaining feminisms as movements is the realization that equal rights is not a popularity cause — in the sense of classifying people into categories of those who get it and those who do not.

I think that’s true but that’s one area that needs serious work because it’s too much about women should be equal but some should be more equal than others. That’s why I have problems among other reasons with the definition of feminism being about equal rights of men and women because within these genders, there’s so much inequality. The only people who stand to benefit from this definition are White straight able-bodied men (who are sympathetic to women facing sexism) and women within those demographics essentially. Similarily eliminating the “patriarchy” will positively impact some women perhaps, but many others, probably not.

bfp’s statement (and she’s blogged on this a lot too):

They are saying the point of feminism is “equality with men” without even thinking to acknowledge that “equality with women” is just as admirable of a goal and maybe even possibly the first step to achieving the goal of equality with men.

is viewed as part of text which is ” really problematic” when it’s so spot on that what’s problematic in my opinion is not only that she’s right but that it’s going on within feminism met with little but defensiveness and downright hostility by White feminists as shown by different threads here. bfp and her statement are not the problem here and what’s harming feminism. What she’s talking about and what she’s been writing about are what are the problems and are what are harming feminism. That’s my opinion and maybe other views may vary.

One major problem is how can you fight for equality between women and men when you’re not even willing to fight for equality between women? How can you seriously hold any credibility in the fight for equality between the genders when you can’t fight for it in your own? None of us are perfect. I clearly have areas that I need to improve in my understanding but feminism is what you make of it or what you don’t. Is it about women, or is it about some women?

I’m thinking locally of what side the White feminists were on during the furor about naming a new school after MLK, jr. and they were on the side of most of the White women who were on the side of most of the White men who were afraid their kids wouldn’t get into Ivy League if it was perceived they went to a “Black school”. The big excuse was that MLK, jr. wasn’t a local hero, but schools were named after a female astronaut/teacher killed in the Challenger explosion and one of the female Kennedys without any similiar protest only that it was great that schools could bear the name of such great women.

It put the city on the map, fortunately not in the good way. I mean, CNN doesn’t usually cover school board meetings live and New York Times doesn’t usually write them up either. But the lines drawn between who thought MLK, jr. was a worthy person to name a school either and who didn’t and they were pretty close to being racial, sitting on two different seating sections separated by an aisle. I remember being disappointed in my demographic for sitting on the wrong side, just as I was when 56% of them voted to ban A.A. in the state (and a similar voting trend by White women’s been seen in other places that passed or voted on similar laws), a rate that was lower than the White male rate but still more than half. These women screwed themselves (as I wonder how many of them read Section C of prop. 209) to align themselves with the men in their racial group (and away from their gender) but they chose their race. But at another site, I think Rachel’s Tavern, Ann provided plenty of information on this in her comments.

Fortunately, the women will get a second chance in my city b/c the suggestion of naming another school after former USSC Justice Thurgood Marshall is already sending up howls of protest. Why? He’s not local, of course. King’s not, Marshall’s not, (neither was Cesar Chavez btw) but Rose Kennedy and Christa McAuliffe are. Hopefully, there will have been something learned by or at least since the MLK, jr. controversy. If it had been a famous Black woman, it wouldn’t have made any difference because those against it would still be upset that their kids would be perceived as going to a “Black school”.

It’s “controversies” like these which shouldn’t be but are (and many women would deny that racism could still be overt enough so that contesting the naming of a school after MLK, jr. could even happen) that are part of reasons to at the very least question feminism and its assumption of who it’s for. Because when White women and Black women are sitting on the opposite sides of the aisle at a meeting or on an issue that impacts them, it always seems like the White feminists choose race over gender (while accusing women of color of doing like or choosing “their men” over their women or not calling their men on their sexism (and I know at least once I was asked to do so!)). On so many different levels, White feminists *d0* choose race over gender even while they point fingers at women of color, accusing them of doing so.

Who defends feminism? I don’t know and I’m not sure I care. But I can definitely understand why women walk away from it, many without looking back. Until the opinions of these women are taken seriously and not labeled as them being misinformed or misconstruing feminism or listening to lies about it because apparently they’re not as smart as White feminists or even being essentially called liars or lying to others, feminism may move forward but probably not in any real meaningful way.

Many great women of color who blog are closing their blogs or taking breaks. I respect their reasons for doing so and support their decisions but I do hope that people are paying attention to what’s happening with these blogs the next time a discussion about women of color and feminism turns around to being about the poor White woman.

This discussion came up before a meeting I attended tonight on something else. Though it’s not just the label. It’s how issues are examined. We talked about differential rape victims. My friend about her daughter who wasn’t viewed as being a rape victim because to many people Latinas can’t be rape victims or raped at all, whereas a White woman was raped and every Black man or dark-skinned Latino from 18-25 was dragged out of class or their homes to submit to DNA testing, and none of them were positive which shouldn’t have been surprising because none of them really fit the description or composite and interestingly enough, a suspected person named by several individuals was never tested.

And this is a huge problem - it should be a feminist issue that any women are considered “unrapeable” because of their race (like Judge Deni, who considers herself a feminist, but considers a black prostitute’s rape to be “theft of services”). Ignoring that this happens, or treating it as a lesser crime than rape against a white woman is just about as anti-feminist as it gets, to me.

And the racial profiling:

One of the tragedies of this situation and many others like it is there is a way for justice for both the victim and the community to be protected and advocated for. It didn’t have to be this way. But until the sense of entitlement that yeah, it’s perfectly fine to raid homes and get justice with a broad sword rather than a scalpal by working harder to find the one who commits the crime, that’s going to be difficult to change.

Yes, this really points out a big part of the problem in general - not just in a feminist context, but in general. Racial profiling is not okay, and isn’t guaranteed to get justice any faster than doing things in a just manner.

It’s possible to track white people down with composite sketches and descriptions, it’s no different for people of color. Doing it like that just shows investment in white supremacy. An opportunity to put the people of color in their proper place and let them know they’re only seen as criminals, not people with the same rights everyone should have.

And that should make every feminist angry.

Apologies for not coming back to this right away - my first impulse was to respond to something else and I wanted to let it sit until that went away, due to Amp’s instructions.

Sorry, but I’m going to chime in with those expressing disappointment in your analysis. It seems you’re saying, “But BFP, that’s not what feminism is *really* about.” But getting into the semantics of whether “feminist” refers to oppressive white feminists or includes WoC/anti-racist feminists is missing the point.

Instead of looking at the problems of feminism that BFP points out in her rejection of it, you’re saying, “but it’s not all like that” — and ignoring the bulk of BFP’s critique. This may not be what you mean to be doing, but that’s what it amounts to (I know because I’ve done the exact same thing in the past, and it sidelines the concerns of WoC). It’s a defensive maneuver and it’s not productive, IMO, because it doesn’t actually address *any* of the criticisms of the feminist movement BFP put forth; all it does is distract attention from those criticisms.

I think it would be a far more beneficial thing for us to figure out what’s wrong with *ourselves,* rather than pointing out what we think is wrong with the arguments of WoC.

I have a good friend who produces the newsletter for a local organization. Again, she does this work at home, has contact with one or two people in the organization, but she makes a huge contribution to the organization.

Perhaps you have skills that would be valued. Can you write a letter to the editor? Can you write a grant proposal? Can you help set up a web site? Can you create T-shirts or buttons? Can you create a product (quilts, canoes, furniture) that could be used as a prize in a fundraising raffle?

If you can’t do that, don’t read our writing.

Better, read and do not appropriate.

Best, read and give us credit.

The best, newest innovations seem to come from POC and WOC. This has been going on for decades, centuries. Admit it, it’s still going on. We deserve better. When I look at white men and women’s writing, they can’t seem to come up with innovative ideas on their own. It’s quite bland. So do something. Make a committment to giving credit.

A movement isn’t a social club… I think that was the point. However, I do think there is a need to form some connection with others as you work and “do” feminism. Like what’s happening here is connection forming but it’s not like you’re out shaking hands. Honestly, I’m an introverted, socially awkward, shy person myself. But when it comes to activism and it comes to doing work for a cause, I’ve been placed in situations where I have to bite the bullet. Just in my personal experience.

And to elaborate more on that — what’s happening here is an example of interaction you can do without having to go through the actual, social awkwardness and still achieve goals.

(Also, another outsider for the GLBTQ community files.)

I think a lot of people -do- do that. I also think there are a number of people, the ones who say “but how can we attract ___ to our movement/publishing company/knitting club/etc?” who never really think of ___ -except- when they’re in Recruit mode. -That’s- what/who I was talking about.

ABW has a brilliant post about editorial responsibilities toward diversity — How to Promote Diversity in Fiction Markets — which, it seems to me, is strangely applicable to a lot of other situations. In particular, I think it might be beneficial for the editors of Seal Press to read.

And for me to reread now that I’m running a magazine. In fact, I think I’ll do that now.

I hear you on that one.

As Emma Goldman never said, “If I must dance, I can’t be part of your revolution.”

Is it maybe partly because–in some cases at least–I don’t actually -know- any of the people directly affected by such and so?

And if not–maybe, does it make sense to go, “huh, maybe I could get to know ___ on a more personal level. Seek people out. Talk to people -as- people over the long haul, as an end in itself. Make real connections, not just ‘oh, i want to LEARN from you.’ See if the world maybe isn’t a little bit bigger than I thought, and maybe make some friends along the way.

I think I was pretty impersonal when I responded the first time to the conception of feminism as a movement or a community. Here’s my personal, visceral response :This comment makes me think that there are people here who are living their lives completely differently to any way I could ever live my life. I can’t imagine thinking I was such a social asset to people that I actively went out and tried to fucking chat them up. I’m an awkward, socially ill-at-ease person who feels emotionally confused and vulnerable if I have more than about half-a-dozen friendships. I get to know people by accident. I don’t even feel part of a goddamned lesbian community. The people I know are varied, yes, though probably not representative of the population or anything at all - and neither of those things is on purpose because I don’t make friends on purpose.
If feminism is only a movement, only a community, then it’s still going to be exclusive because it’s going to exclude the geeky, introverted people who don’t happen to have fallen in with a set of nice likeminded folks. It’s still making it into a big social club where you have to know the right sort of people to get in at all. And I think that sucks. It doesn’t have such huge social consequences of feminism being racist or classist, but it still sucks and it seems unneccesary. Why can’t we all do feminism in our separate ways and concentrate on actually trying to achieve the same goals?

Ravenmn, one thing I think is critical for maintaining feminisms as movements is the realization that equal rights is not a popularity cause — in the sense of classifying people into categories of those who get it and those who do not.

Good point. I screwed up. It definitely was getting back into personal popularity and I apologize for it.

I do want to say something about thread derailment. It happens a lot. And I’m at fault for responding to derailers both here and, especially over at BlackAmazon’s thread that Seal Press effectively derailed.

What if bloggers developed a practice that diverted derailers onto other threads? What if we moved the comment of the original derailer onto its own thread with a link to the new thread so that people who want to deal with the derailment can comment at will, but the original thread can continue the discussion without the derailing.

Belle, thanks for the link to Lauren. That’s awesome.

http://fauxrealtho.com/2008/04/12/on-writing-atrocity-and-privilege-redux/

just, to repeat what I said at the end of a comment there:

…I’m going to go in a slightly different direction from the usual conclusion to this, i.e. “damn, I’m/we’re shallow and we suck, I Will Work Harder at intellectually understanding such and so, because it is my Duty,” maybe more: okay, I’m not feeling such and so terribly viscerally. Why not? Is it maybe partly because–in some cases at least–I don’t actually -know- any of the people directly affected by such and so?

And if not–maybe, does it make sense to go, “huh, maybe I could get to know ___ on a more personal level. Seek people out. Talk to people -as- people over the long haul, as an end in itself. Make real connections, not just ‘oh, i want to LEARN from you.’ See if the world maybe isn’t a little bit bigger than I thought, and maybe make some friends along the way.”

Because, ime, once you do that, the “difficult” stuff often becomes a lot easier to understand. Because, now it’s not just some abstract issue. Now, it’s personal.

**

…which brings us back, once again, to this notion of “community” that bfp was talking about.

Because, I don’t know, I keep reading all these accounts of, say, the WAM conference, and how de facto segregated it ended up being; how time and again this gets played out in various networking and social events;

and it’s like: you know, credit where credit is due is a start. But, like…ever try actually getting to -know- people who aren’t just like you? I don’t mean, just BECAUSE they’re not just like you, but because, you know, hey, cool person, maybe I could get over myself and my Fear Of Doing Something Wrong for five minutes and just making some overtures for their own sake?

maybe it sounds trite, but…shrug.